I have nowhere else to complain, so I will do it here

[frazwood]

I ran into this behavior last spring. Below is a link to what I observed.

http://www.hotspotoutdoors.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2810255/Cannon_River_Bowfin#Post2810255

I read that thread in the spring. Very sad. It's kind of similar to my situation in that it's an entire culture, not just one person.

Luckily, the guys in my area only catch one or two dogfish a year, as far as I can tell from their fish stories.

[Comit 2]

I do believe it is illegal to use Bowfin as bait! It is not in the class as a minnow. You can not return dead fish or parts of dead fish to Minnesota water.

If you can't use dog food to bait for Carp because it may contain fish parts, l do have a hard time seeing it to be legal to use Bowfin as bait.

Wait for it...........................But we have always used them as bait.

Indoctrination can be a real female dog. Especially when you find out it was wrong.

[Comit 2]

Under Bait on page 12 of the 2012 fishing regulations. First line! Using whole or parts of game fish, goldfish, of carp for bait is unlawful.

Under bow fishing p,68 last line. Rough fish taken by bowfishing shall not be returned to the water or left on the banks of any water.

How can giving the fish to someone to use for bait in a different body of water make this a responsible undertaking?

[Stick500]

Under Bait on page 12 of the 2012 fishing regulations. First line! Using whole or parts of game fish, goldfish, of carp for bait is unlawful.

Under bow fishing p,68 last line. Rough fish taken by bowfishing shall not be returned to the water or left on the banks of any water.

How can giving the fish to someone to use for bait in a different body of water make this a responsible undertaking?

A bowfin is not a gamefish, goldfish or carp, so by that definition you can use a bowfin (or pieces of it) for bait, though I don't know why anyone would want to since I imagine small bowfin are not a common forage for muskys, bass, etc. A sucker, bullhead, shad, or any variety of minnows would make a lot more sense as bait for MN gamefish.

As for transferring it to another body of water, well that's a different deal and we'd have to look at what the regs say on that. I have read them before and IIRC I tend to get confused as to exactly what they're saying.

[Comit 2]

JB asked the Q; what do you do with all the Carp you shoot? the answer was.

Quote:

I have a friend who is a commercial leech and turtle trapper. He has a large freezer warehouse and uses them for bait. I admire the passion the folks here have for the catch and release of the fish they love. I don't see the logic of wasting taxpayer money calling a CO to investigate someone killing a dogfish. It is a rough fish, a very cool rough fish, but one that is not protected, and not very targeted. I would be the first person to call the CO if I saw someone throwing fish on the bank or dumping them in the ditch. Bow fishing or hook and line. It makes us all look bad. My passion is bow fishing, yours is catching and releasing them. I will leave it at that...good luck to you all.

[StillwaterAaron]

I have a friend who is a commercial leech and turtle trapper. He has a large freezer warehouse and uses them for bait. I admire the passion the folks here have for the catch and release of the fish they love. I don't see the logic of wasting taxpayer money calling a CO to investigate someone killing a dogfish. It is a rough fish, a very cool rough fish, but one that is not protected, and not very targeted. I would be the first person to call the CO if I saw someone throwing fish on the bank or dumping them in the ditch. Bow fishing or hook and line. It makes us all look bad. My passion is bow fishing, yours is catching and releasing them. I will leave it at that...good luck to you all.

Do you not understand balance of nature?

Places that have good bowfin populations also have quality panfish. Bowfin eat mostly small panfish and help us with manage for quality panfish. It is sad that so many people do have this attitude.

[Mudcatman]

Guys like big edd think their doing the whole entire world a favor by ridding it of fish that are not good to eat. What him and other guys like him dont realize are the facts about native species and their place in the eco-system and keeping the food chain well balanced. Just wait bow fishing dudes. Changes are on the way. More and more "roughfish" species will be on state endangered and special concern lists in the future. Information and folks that know the facts will be more and more common. And tolerance for your "sport" will grow less and less. Pretty soon bow-fishing will be no longer. I mean 5 even 10 years ago, would you have seen a thread like this where people are actually concerned about concerving native species, bow-fishing, and wasteful harvests by bowfishers? Change is on its way. My advice, stick to the common carp. Make it your main target. All its gonna take it a few Blue Suckers, Black Redhorse or Black Buffalo harvested by bow to wreck it all for you. And it will happen, someone will screw it up. Geez, what are we gonna do when no bow-fishers will be there to control the rough fish population? Our waters are going to be over-populated and teaming with rough fish of all species. Yeah right. Dont buy into the B.S. Its just a blood sport.

[Comit 2]

I remember when I was young (that's odd, it was the 70's) well I kind of remember . There was a local lake called Lake Volney. It had been a big local swimming lake in the days before AC and is one of the deepest lakes in southern Mn. There was a Carp trap next to the swimming beach at the time and I would enjoy checking out the fish that were trapped in it. All the locales would always complain about how the carp have messed up the lake. They even had Flathead Catfish stocked in the lake to control the Carp population. Complain, Complain, complain. I would hear it every time I would talk to the land owners around the lake.

Me, well, the gears start turning in my head. I start looking into how to catch Carp on hook and line. It turns out I'm sitting on one of the best Carp lakes in the country! Wow!! I could go out on a good day and catch over 10 fish over 15lb. I don't care what kind of fish it is, a 15-25lb fish is a 15-25lb fish.

So now the bad part. I held a south central Carp Get Together on Lake Volney a few years ago. We had a great time and I think the largest Carp weighed in at around 30lbs. I think everyone caught one 15lb or bigger. Well word got out. They were sticking them with arrows day and night! The commercial fishermen came in and dragged there nets. When they were all done they had done in one year what 40 years of fish traps, Flathead catfish and complaining locals couldn't do, decimate the carp population on lake Volney.

If Lake Volney was to be left the way it was a few years back I am sure People would be coming from all over the country to try for a Lake Volney Carp. Just Google, carp anglers group.

This was one of the best Carp lakes in the country. What am I talking about? this isn't cool, there just rough fish.

[Stick500]

I remember when I was young (that's odd, it was the 70's) well I kind of remember . There was a local lake called Lake Volney. It had been a big local swimming lake in the days before AC and is one of the deepest lakes in southern Mn. There was a Carp trap next to the swimming beach at the time and I would enjoy checking out the fish that were trapped in it. All the locales would always complain about how the carp have messed up the lake. They even had Flathead Catfish stocked in the lake to control the Carp population. Complain, Complain, complain. I would hear it every time I would talk to the land owners around the lake.

Me, well, the gears start turning in my head. I start looking into how to catch Carp on hook and line. It turns out I'm sitting on one of the best Carp lakes in the country! Wow!! I could go out on a good day and catch over 10 fish over 15lb. I don't care what kind of fish it is, a 15-25lb fish is a 15-25lb fish.

So now the bad part. I held a south central Carp Get Together on Lake Volney a few years ago. We had a great time and I think the largest Carp weighed in at around 30lbs. I think everyone caught one 15lb or bigger. Well word got out. They were sticking them with arrows day and night! The commercial fishermen came in and dragged there nets. When they were all done they had done in one year what 40 years of fish traps, Flathead catfish and complaining locals couldn't do, decimate the carp population on lake Volney.

If Lake Volney was to be left the way it was a few years back I am sure People would be coming from all over the country to try for a Lake Volney Carp. Just Google, carp anglers group.

This was one of the best Carp lakes in the country. What am I talking about? this isn't cool, there just rough fish.

That does stink from your perspective. I would feel the same way. However, to play devil's advocate, I would have to ask have the gamefish populations, vegetation or water clarity changed at all on that lake due to the elimination of the carp (things can get a bit complicated though if something like milfoil has been introduced at some time, changing the ecosystem despite the carp population)?

I do understand that many MN lakes, especially the moderate and deep lakes, have evolved to a nice equilibrium whereas healthy populations of carp and gamefish coexist A-OK with no damage to either. The metro lakes, Cedar, Calhoun and Harriet seem to be a good example of that.

[DLD24]

Ya, I understand that frazwood, no one wants all the neighbors [PoorWordUsage] at them...I'm amazed no one brought eel pout up, people always throw those on the ice for no reason...Hell at LOW over new years I found a 6lber or so laying on the ice..Just because there ugly people kill them?? Some of these people should look in the mirror and be glad their not a pout lol

[Comit 2]

Quote:

That does stink from your perspective. I would feel the same way. However, to play devil's advocate, I would have to ask have the gamefish populations, vegetation or water clarity changed at all on that lake due to the elimination of the carp (things can get a bit complicated though if something like milfoil has been introduced at some time, changing the ecosystem despite the carp population)?

Lake Volney has a sand bottom with vary little muck, if any.

Yes there has been some problems with the water quality but the jury is still out on what is causing the problem/problems. One is the new housing areas septic system.

Lake Volney is not on the Cannon river but it is connected to a large marsh area (where the trap was years ago) that connects to the Cannon River. They are testing to see if the marsh area back washes into Volney when the river goes up in the spring. Last years spring water levels were low so it can take a few years to find out.

Volney is fickle. It can have 20foot water clarity one day and two weeks later less then 3feet. I think water clarity in Volney has a lot to do with (water) spring activity. Back in 1930 they say the lake was 120feet deep. It is now 65-70feet deep. Back in the 80's I had a fishing spot on a bar that is no longer there (the bar is no longer there). It is now 20 feet deeper in that spot! It most have slid into the abyss.

[StillwaterAaron]

Ya, I understand that frazwood, no one wants all the neighbors [PoorWordUsage] at them...I'm amazed no one brought eel pout up, people always throw those on the ice for no reason...Hell at LOW over new years I found a 6lber or so laying on the ice..Just because there ugly people kill them?? Some of these people should look in the mirror and be glad their not a pout lol

I try not to bring up new species that are abused.

MN is behind WI in protection of threatened species. In WI Greater, River, Black redhorse are not allowed to be harvested. Problem is so many officers can not even ID these fish. MN is in the process of protecting these species along with some others.

We ourselves are invaders to this "new" land. Times change.

I do not get mad at people until they prove they do not care to learn. I learn all the time and when I stop learning I will be dead. So much money is dumped into stocking non native trout. Muskies where they never were any and it is all monetary. When enough people care about the underutilized fish then they will get more money for research. This time is coming sooner than most think. Even Minnows are becoming more common place to be targeted for angling. The internet has changed the way we communicate and learn. We learn quicker and more easily. This has damaged some fisheries in the short term but I do believe with time the fishing will be awesome. Look at what Muskies have become with the internet and digital cameras. We can show these awesome fish off and let them swim. The same goes for sturgeon. Both these fish have been promoted to be catch and release! There is a smaller group that does the same with underutilized fish. Bowfin are not really an eating fish so we encourage CPR. Nothing different than James Holst does on his fishing show. He told me that he has fond memories of fishing for suckers in small rivers.

Time! Time will change us and make us more selective on our "Harvest"

I love all fish from the Logperch to the Lake sturgeon small and big!

A smile will make more listen than a shouting match. Off to go chase some whitefish this weekend!

[Stick500]

Some of these people should look in the mirror and be glad they're not a pout

Funniest line in the thread!

[Comit 2]

Eel Pout. Just another name for a fresh water Cod! YUM! In New England fish is Cod and if you want something different you will have to ask for it my name.

I had a friend back in the day tell me that if you catch a Pout you have to take it out of the fish house, throw it up in the air and hit it with a shovel as far as you can.

As for Bowfin. The Asian community does eat Bowfin. They are vary similar to Snakehead and fill the same niche. Asians did bring Snakehead to the states to eat. Just like we brought the common Carp. If you post a good spot to catch Bowfin, you will see Asians there within a week. Good for them and I might be with them.

If a law says; if you shoot a fish with a arrow "it can not go back into the water". How can you use it for bait with out it going "back into the water?"

I have no problem with people taking Carp by arrow. None at all. Great for the Bow manufactures. If you want to feed them to some pigs, great I'm all for bacon. Heck, I may even try bacon on smoked Carp. Now sticking a 55gal barrel or two of fish and just dumping them in a field, well,,,,,,,, I guess I do use corn for carp bait but a few carp for some corn seam like diminishing returns. A couple kernels of corn for a Carp. Well that is reusable fun.

Now if a Bowfisherman were to say; "Yes I shoot Bowfin with Bow and arrow. I know a few people in the Asian community that take the Bowfin off my hands." Well now that would really shut me up. Much better then saying; Oh I let them rot.

[Stick500]

If a law says; if you shoot a fish with a arrow "it can not go back into the water". How can you use it for bait with out it going "back into the water?"

That line isn't meant to be taken so literally. It's perfectly legal to shoot a shad, sucker, mooneye, etc. from the Mississippi, cut it up, and use it as cutbait in the same river. What you can't do on any waters is purposely kill a fish (no matter what the means) and toss it back in the water. I'm pretty sure the primary reason behind that rule is to keep areas from getting all stunk up and ugly from a bunch of big, dead floating fish that someone shot or caught. I'm pretty sure in MN it's illegal to just toss fish up on shore too (that is the law in WI I know for sure).

[Mudcatman]

Man, its a shame hearing about them Volney carp. Not too often you come across a gem like that in the carp world. Dont get me wrong, I like catching carp too. Their probably the toughest fighting fish in fresh water, pound for pound. Smart fish too. But if a guys gotta choose between bow guys shooting up a bunch of native species or asian carp, well my choice would be the carp getting targeted. Pleanty of common carp populations around here to fill those 55 gallon drums. Just think of the numbers of Bighead and Silver Carp down south that could be targeted.

Reminds me of a trip to southern Illinois I took a few years back. We fished the Kaskaskia River below the last dam before it reached the Mississippi. You should have seen all the Silver Carp in there. It would make your head spin. Still even there, guys were bow-fishing for Spotted Gar. Friggen flying carp all around the boat and heres these guys filling barrels up with native gar. Why? Dont know the answer still to this day, I should have asked them. But I think about it often.

I dont agree with bow-fishing at all. I think its wasteful for the most part. Sure, there are a few guys doing it right. Only killing enough to eat or harvesting a few for the wifes flower garden. But lets face it, for the majority its a competitive thing. And a wasteful thing. To use the old fertilizer excuse over and over again, its just wrong. Its target practice at best for most. You would never see stuff like this going on in other countries. Only here in the good old U.S.A. can you just go around shooting fish and dumping them in the ground to rot. But if a guys going to be allowed to do it, why not make him target the invasives? I be at peace with the whole thing if this were the case.

[bigg edd]

Mudcat, when did I say I was doing anyone a favor?? Big changes?? Really?? I'm glad I came back to this topic. I needed a good chuckle. Yes, I shoot a few dogfish, to say its going to shut down bow fishing is, well, I don't really know what to say its so ridiculous. I have been shooting carp for over 30 years. I have never been at the boat landing with a boat full of carp and been verbally attacked for participating in a "blood sport". Sorry man, we don't live in Europe. The river system and lakes I'm on are full of dogfish. Shooting a few will not harm the population. I have yet to see a single person fishing for dogfish while I'm bow fishing, they are not a targeted species from what I have seen.

When MN puts the dogfish on the "endangered species" list I will drive my bow fishing rig, with all my gear in it, to your house and give it to you so you can push it off a cliff.

Mudcat, your the classic "if I don't agree with it, it's not right and no one should do it" type of person the outdoor community doesn't need. I'm an avid bass fisherman and would never keep a bass, but if YOU want to, so be it, and good for you.

[Mudcatman]

Big Edd,I never said you would be the specific person to ruin bow-fishing. Not by shooting a bunch of "worthless bowfin", that is. But someone who does bow-fish will eventually shoot the wrong batch of fish and post them up online. It may have to happen several times over many years, but eventually it will happen, and action will be taken. There are folks who actually watch for this stuff now. The "sport" of bow-fishing will be cracked down on big time. You will have pages and pages of rules and regulations just like the angling community does. Certain bodies of water will be off limits, just like how it is now on designated trout streams now, but way worse for you bow dudes. More and more areas will be cut off from bow-fishing. And that will make me happy. To know that I was a part of ending some of this stuff.

Really big edd, I have no problem with a guy shooting some exotics. Not a whole fricken 55 gallon barrel of them though. And shooting bowfin is just stupid. They do benefit every lake their in. They keep stunted panfish populations in check. I bet if more lakes had bowfin, we would deal with alot less potato chip style bluegill infested lakes. And they dont over-run a lake or river like carp tend to do. Their a top level preditor man, not a bottom sucker. A native species. An asset to every lake their found in.

And you have to admit this. Alot of bow-fishers are in it for the competition. And for the target practice. Thats a fact that cant be denied dude. And thats what [PoorWordUsage] people off. That and the fact that all these kills are not utilized, other than being tossed in the maneur spreder. What a waste. And alot of you guys shoot and release fish too. Thats not cool either. That fish is just gonna die in the future or be screwed up for life. Its not sporting at all to do stuff like that.

I just dont like bow-fishing. Everyones entitled to an opinion. You have yours, and I have mine. Doesn't make me a bad sportman because of my opinions. And its kind of one of those threads here, with a bunch of folks on a strictly fishing forum for rough fish. Why do you think the rough fish fishing forum and the bow-fishing forum are seperate now? Cause people here dont want or care to see what ya'll got going on. I can guarentee you that I'm not the only one who feels like this here. Just might be the only one who might say something about it. Rough fish fishing is catching on in a big way. People see the sporting value in these fish now, way more than 5 even 10 years ago. Some people, including me, even eat suckers, redhorse and carp. Smoked carp is excellent, ground redhorse and sucker is fantastic.

So dont get too offended that your "sport" might be changing in the future there big edd. It was gonna happen anyways eventually. Sorry you had to hear about it here like this. But you dont have to worry about your bowfin or carp laws being threatened I bet. Which is a good thing for you right? Your right, there will probably never be any laws protecting unlimited amounts of bowfin from being shot day after day, if someone chooses to do so. But in the future it will change where it needs to be changed. To concerve populations of native species that are beneficial to the aquatic ecosystem. To save certain species from declining numbers. To maintain what we have, before its gone for good. And I look forward to that day. Cant wait to see certain waters closed to bow-fishing for good. It will be a step in the right direction.

[bigg edd]

Mudcat, you sure know a lot about the bow fishing community. Yes, there have been changes in the last few years, liberalizing bow fishing, not restricting. That is why they allow night shooting, way more effective at taking large quanties of fish. I shoot maybe 10% of the infested lakes within 15 miles of my house.

Practice? How does using no sights and having to adjust shooting angles by 2 feet help me in the deer stand? Aiming 2' below a deer won't get me far. It's not even close to being target practice.

Don't worry, "your" dogfish are ok. I see plenty of them and I let most of them swim. I have seen far more killed by fisherman who catch them by accident.

Maybe you should stop fishing for these threatened fish? How about hooking mortality? Your probably killing more of these fish by targeting them? Sounds rediculious dosent it?

[Mudcatman]

The only thing that sounds rediculious is your trying to justify what you do on an angling for rough fish forum. You dont see me trying to tell you whats up in the bow-fishing forum, do you. No, I stay away from that forum. One, because there is no sense even saying anything there because all your gonna get is reactions like this. Two, its your place, a place much different than this here fourm, an angling forum. I try to respect that by not ripping it up there like your trying to do here. Get used to it Edd. You wanna come on forums like this and preach bow-fishing, be prepared to hear about it from the opposite end of the spectrum.

Think of it like this. You love your bow-fishing, right? Folks here and on other sites like it love angling for those same fish you love to shoot and dump. And are just as passionate about catch and release of these same species that you waste every time you take your rig out for another session. So think about it. Ask yourself why people like me and other folks will have issue with what your doing. I think the answer is pretty clear. You just got lost here Edd. Go back you your bow-fishing thread and quit lurking on an angling thread. Why are you checking this out anyways? Thought you were a hard core bass guy. Must be looking for new spots to bow-fish, eh?

Times are changing. People are not thinking of rough fish the same way anymore. Its not like the old days. Old timers with narrow minds and old ways of thinking are being phased out. The facts are actually being looked at now. Get used to it Edd.

[bigg edd]

I do quite a bit of angleing for suckers and carp after ice out. Oddly enough on the same body of water that I shoot most of my carp. I don't need any new spots. There is an endless supply in my back yard. I hunt, fish, and trap just about everything, so yes I look at a few different threads from time to time. Sorry if I infiltrated your "elitist " forum. This thread started with a guy catching a fish by hook and line. Oh my, one of your own!

Mudcat, your out there dude.... And I'll be waiting for the new reg and restrictions to come out...

[Mudcatman]

Just remember there Edd, your the one who opened yourself up for this "attack" by telling us all about your tubs full of dead bow shot fish. I dont know why it is that every time there is a serious talk about rough fish on this forum, one of you fricken bow guys gotta chime in and make some outlandish remark. Be a man Edd and learn to just keep your mouth shut. Myself and others here could care less about your stupid "sport". So you shot a bunch of rough fish. Big deal. Its a no talent, wasteful hobby. Try fooling those same fish with bait. Try stalking giant carp armed with bait and a rod. Try to fool a Bigmouth Buffalo into biting. Toss out a giant chunk of cut bait for trophy bowfin in spawning colors. Thats what gets my blood flowing, my heart beating hard. Tell ya what Edd. Stay clear of this forum with your comments, and I'll stay clear of the bow-fishing forum with my comments. Cause just like yours here, mine would not be welcome there either.

[Mudcatman]

You might consider me weird Edd. I really dont care. As a matter a fact, dont care what anyone thinks. Proud to be a "roughfisher".

You cant tell me stuff like this aint cool...

Greater Redhorse:

American Eel:

Freshwater Drum:

Smallmouth Buffalo:

Northern Hogsucker:

White Sucker:

These are the fish that float my boat. All "rough fish". All species pictured here are native to Minnesota and caught in MN. All unprotected, you could shoot as many of these beauties in a day, every day if you wanted to. To each is own, man. You love your bass and shooting fish, I love the beauty of all fish. To me, there are no rough fish, only fish. They may be called trash fish or under-utilized fish by some. I call em fricken sweet. Way more interesting than catching the same 2 lb bass all day long.

Oh yeah, and by the way, all fish pictured were caught with the hook and line method, photographed, and released.

[bigg edd]

Nice pics.

I have no need to say any more. You have said it....

[Mudcatman]

Glad you liked the pics Edd. Be cautious out there. There might be more weirdos like me out there somewhere...