Geothermal?

[deerminator]

Anyone done this yet or have experience installing and have thoughts on the pros/cons? We have a couple bids out. One company, more helpful than the other is working their's up and will be boring horizontally if they do it so it should require minimal disturbance to the ground level. They're going to give us a couple of different options on systems and compare what they believe the utility bills would be with geothermal for the past two years compared to what we did pay so we can gauge the potential savings.

The whole reason we are investigating is our church just had a system installed with the same company and what they are paying on their loan for the new system is about what they'd have paid additionally on traditional heating and cooling costs. If that's the case, it's a no brainer for me.

The company we're mainly looking at says they'd probably install two systems, one that runs our forced air, which would be the main heat source and one for the in-floor heat, which would now be just for comfort. The in-floor is currently our main heat source and our electric bills were through the roof this winter and last.

[flyfisher03]

My parents installed a geothermal with propane backup forced air system last fall, when ever visiting the heat was much more even (the blower is on longer but fewer cfm). The heating bills were much lower than the previous fuel-oil system, and they didn't use any propane at all last winter. The biggest advantage to geothermal is in the summer with cooling.

Also my parents church installed it, and so did my aunt and uncle (they like it a lot), and some other families I know have it and none have regretted it.

[K_Josh87]

Very good way to go if you have the means to pay for the system. My parents put it in their new log home about 4 years ago... remember, its not only your heat, it is also your AC for the summer with the forced air system... and can also be used to heat your water...

[nobody05]

I'm still not totally convinced that geothermal is the way to go for all applications.

[deerminator]

Thanks guys. Yeah, we'll work it into a refinancing we're doing if it makes sense. I know it's a lot of dough no matter the lowest bid, but from what I understand, you can get a tax credit for up to about a 1/3 of the cost of the system and installation. Plus, if the additional monthly loan payment is less or about the same of the traditional energy costs, it makes sense to spend the money on the geothermal system and have something to show versus giving it to the power company and never seeing anything for it. My 2 cents at least.

[K_Josh87]

It should easily pay you back in the long run. As always, be leary of the lowest bid... not always the best... not always the worst, but do your research. Good Luck!

[fishwidow]

Did ours in summer 2010. Air conditioner was dying and the Federal tax Credit--30%--utility company rebate--$400.00 per ton--and a program that the state had at the time (no longer) made the installation an absolute no-brainer. Hard to tell the exact cost savings because of all the variables related to a cooler summer last year and a warmer winter, but it has to be considerably cheaper since you're only operating a pump.

One thing about the horizontal drilling--that won't disrupt anything, but if you have the slinky coils in the ground, they still need to dig some pretty big trenches to bury them in. Doesn't take long for grass seed to grow and get it back to normal, though.

[nobody05]

What kind of system do you currently have? How old your house? How tight is it? The only reason I ask is I thought about geothermal in my house. 1978 Rambler. I recently put new all windows in, added insulation to the attic. I tossed around some prices with geo vs air source. Went the air souce route. Could not be happier. Installed a 17 Seer 2 stage heat pump onto a 95 variable speed 2 stage propane furnace. All together it costed me 7k. Last winter/summer I heated and cooled my house for around that $450-500 Range. For me it did not justify the extra 8-10k to go geo. That's Just my exirence with it.

[deerminator]

Agreed. Probably doesn't make a lot of sense in that scenario but we're dropping $350-$400 a month on our electric bill this fall/winter to power the in-floor heat (main heat source), water heater and lights and appliances. And that's enrolled in all the offpeak and savings programs. Plus I spent almost $1,000 to fill our propane tank to run the forced air furance, which is the secondary system. Our house is 7 years old and sealed up tight. We're pretty conservative in our energy usage in my estimation. I have all the thermostats set to crank down while we are out. Summer time I know the air conditioner will contribute to the power bill as well. Last summer we were approaching $300 many months and it wasn't that hot out!

[nofishfisherman]

I have a friend who put in geothermal and he hasn't had such good results. For the first year they weren't noticing any savings at all. They called the company back out and they said maybe there was a leak somewhere in the coils. They sprayed something throught he coils that was meant to seal the leak but it didn't work. They ended up having to dig up the entire yard to look for the leak.

Once that was done they started seeing some improvment but not what they had hoped for and not what they were told to expect. I was just over to his place this weekend and the upper level was good as usual but the newly refinished basement was still noticably colder (probably 5-10 degrees colder) even though it was just reinsulated and has new windows.

So now after having the system for 3 years they are starting to recoup the costs but its at a very slow rate. And last summer they were finally able to start reseeding the lawn after living with a huge mud pit of a backyard for a full 2 years. It was torn up the first time when the coils went in and you can't replant until the following summer to allow for the ground to settle. After a year they then had to tear it up a second time to fix the appreant leak in the coils (after having just brought in several tons of topsoil to fill in the depressions caused by settling). They then had to wait again for the next summer to allow for the settling again. So now after yet another load of top soil they could start reclaiming their lawn.

Now this I'm sure isn't the norm but I posted just to let you know its not a fool proof system. I guess the biggest issue is if the coils develop a leak. If that happens your efficiency is going down the drain and a fix may include having to dig up the entire yard to look for the leak since theres no way to know where it is ahead of time.

[flyfisher03]

The difference in temperature between floors happens with any forced air system without proper sizing of duct work, to fix this problem a zone system may be needed (installing dams in the ducts controlled with seperate thermostats).

Also a comment on the heat pump option. I had some friend who lived south of Sioux Falls and had a heat pump installed. It worked great for cooling in the summer but in the winter it wasn't able to keep up when the temperature dropped to normal winter temperatures. Thus they ended up paying the same heating cost with the propane backup.

[nobody05]

deerminator, you running an electric boiler for main heat source I take it? There is absoutly nothing cheap about electricty as a heat source? Possibly a 95% condensing boiler is a thought?

[hulapopper]

Deer, Using your figures of about 400 per month during the coldest parts of the winter lets say 4 months that is $1600. If it costs about 9K to install the geo system it is going to take your about 6 years just to pay the cost of the geo thermal system. That doesn't include the cost of electricity to run the pumps to pump the liquid through the system and any maintenance on those pumps. You might want to find out what it would cost to replace one if it goes bad. I built a new house 5 years ago and I had every intention of putting in a geothermal system but I had two plumbers and an engineer tell me that you really need to look at all the expenses when you are trying to make the decision. The engineer has had to replace his pump twice so far.

[nobody05]

hydronic geo system for 9k? Good luck with that.

[schmoe147]

I doubt anyone anywhere would be able to do a geo system for 9k. If it was that cheap most people would do it. I was thinkin more around the 25-50k range.

[fishwidow]

Mine was $20K for a 4 ton unit. Got $1,600 back in utilty rebates, $6,000 in Federal tax credtits, and a large rebate from the expired state of Minnesota program.

[deerminator]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm waiting for the second company to get back to me with estimates. Like I said, they're going to run some estimates on cost savings, etc., too. We plan to be in this house for the rest of our lives ideally since we bought it from my wife's family and its belonged to them since Minnesota became a state! So when it comes to having the system pay for itself in the long run, we plan to be here for as long as that would take hopefully.

[MJBaldwin]

You typically don't see a payback for 15+ years from what I have seen at work this is in a commercial setting now I'm not 100% sure on that but that's on the good side most schools have a 30 yr payback

[nobody05]

15-30 yrs? What is the life expectency of a unit? I imagine at 30 yrs compressors and other major componts will be exhausted. And have to buy new then you would be behind the 8 ball again.

[MJBaldwin]

There are two parts of the geothermal system. The exterior which is the well field the. There is the interior parts which are either heat pumps or furnace as well as the main pumps driving the water with glycol through the exterior system. Compressors on heat pumps go out way to often for what they cost.

[hawgchaser]

I have experience with two commercial geothermal systems. Part of the long payoff of schools & commercial installations is due to federal/state indoor air quality requirements. Our architects informed us that 25% of the air in the building would need to be exchanged every hour. On a -20 degree day, you heat the volume of air in the building from -20 to 70 degrees 6 different times. Also, the cool air of the air conditioning is not conditioned air and is actually the same relative humidity as the outside air, so dehumidifying should be included in any geothermal system or you could get mold/mildew problems. The Fergus Falls school district found that out their first summer on geothermal. More to ponder.

[ccarlson]

I just sold a house I built in 2001 that I put an open loop geothermal system in. The builder I had frame it up and help me with contracting told me I would regret the geothermal system and would take it out within a year. I was also told that the air conditioning feature would not remove moisture like a normal A/C does. I was also told the forced air system would not keep up in a normal MN winter. etc. etc.

After 10 years I had nothing but absolute positive experiences with my geothermal system. When the A/C is running it pulls moisture as well as any A/C does. When the heat is on the air from the ducts is very warm, just as warm an any normal forced air system. I only had one issue after about 6 months where I thought the air was a little cool in the winter and the installer came and checked the condenser. He added a little more pressure and it was good for the next 10 years.

I also had an offpeak electric water heater installed and then used the geothermal system to supplement the domestic hot water as a side affect of running to heat or cool the house. I had one month where my bill for hot water was less than $3. On average it was about $10-$15. Not bad for 2 teenage girls running a lot of water and all the laundry etc.

We just moved to a newer house built in 2008 with gas floor heat and forced air and a standard A/C unit. What I wouldn't give to have my geothermal system back!! Can't believe the cost of heating and cooling this place compared to my old place and 3 units to do the job of one at my old house.

If you live in the country and have a low area or drainage away from the house, consider an open loop. A fraction of the price and uses less water than someone filling their swimming pool in an average year.

ccarlson

[hawgchaser]

ccarlson,

I'm intrigued. What type of ventilation system, if any, was in the geothermal house. Did you have a sub-grade basement, a split level, a single level or a walkout in the house. I'm going to be upgrading the heating/cooling system and had pretty much ruled out geothermal after hearing all the issues with the FF school...particularly in the sub-grade rooms. I could easily implement the open loop system.

[john skarie]

We use geo-thermal to heat/cool our greenhouses. Heat the concrete slabs and have forced air heat/cooling. We have 1/2 an acre of greenhouses to heat.

Geo certainly does take out humidity. It operates the same as an AC unit, so why wouldn't it? You pull hot air thtough cold coils and the moisture condenses out.

Your payback will be sooner the more expensive propane and heating oil are, obviously. So when you are figuring out a payback, you need to assume that fuel prices will always be going up, and they could go up a lot, who knows.

I would be very careful about hiring a conctractor. Check many references, and only hire someone who has been in the game for more than just a couple of years.

Almost every bad experience I've heard of is due to faulty set-up plans or bad install.

JS

[ccarlson]

Hawgchaser,

I had a forced air system that worked just like any other forced air system of ductwork etc. except it also was an AC unit in the summer. If I had to do it again I would have gone in floor heat in the basement (walkout) and forced air upstairs. I got mine at mid american energy in baxter. It was a little more than a gas furnace and AC combined but it paid for itself in less than 3 years. After that I was money ahead.

Pump and dump systems (open loop) are pretty easy and much cheaper than a closed loop system. Plus the water regenerates back into the ground so it really isn't wasted.

ccarlson