More trapping of dogs...

[crappiegetter]

would it maybe too much to ask to put a surveyor stake up with like pink or orange tape on it so a guy could see it and direct hos dog back to him? Would that change the outcome of successfully trapping an animal?

I flag all my traps with a 4ft fiberglass electric fence stick and bright orange in areas where its possible dogs could be but all my conibears are under water so they shouldn't get caught anyway.

[Trashguy]

Very refreshing post crappiegetter. Thank you.

[MuleShack]

would it maybe too much to ask to put a surveyor stake up with like pink or orange tape on it so a guy could see it and direct hos dog back to him?

Heck, that is all I would like to see. I dont care if the traps are out on public land, just let me know where they are so I can keep my dogs away from the area.

Right now, I keep my dogs away from any water edge or creek in public area for fear of unmarked traps.

I think as a bare minimum all traps on public land should have a minimum standard marking. If you fear the traps are going to get stolen, that is a risk you take to trap public land.

Private land, different story, that would be up to the land owner if they get marked or not.

I don't see the need to make them go away or take them off the ground as long as there is notification and markings.

The other thing I find troubling is those that use pheasant remains to bait traps. Not sure if "rumors" are true, but that seems like it is asking for trouble. My dogs are trained to find that scent. Is there other baits out there?

[grousehunter]

Six dead dogs because of conibear traps is a very big problem to other dog owners. Not hunting or going on the public lands because you fear for your dog’s safety because of traps is serious.

Public land, State and National forests do not belong to just trappers so they can kill to make a living.

An online petition (see http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/mark-dayton-governor-minnesota/) to outlaw body-gripping traps on public land. Please contact your state representative and senator to outlaw body-grip-traps on public land.

I'm all for changing the rules around to help protect dogs, or even possibly limit land coniber sets to private land. That petition is basically one big step to end all trapping though. Wouldn't even consider putting my name on there or associating with the petition. The last lines in it state: "Trapping wild animals for fur should be a thing of the past - there is no good reason to allow the practice to continue today. We ask that you end the lethal trapping of wild carnivores." States nothing of public vs. private and basically says right in the petition all trapping should be outlawed except on city raccoons....

[kelly-p]

This to say the least an interesting topic. I used to trap for a living but quit doing that when the number of recreational trappers increased along with the price of gas and trapping was no longer as profitable. I used to bird hunt on public land but quit doing that when bird hunting on public land became circus of bird hunters all driving fast down a road to get to their favorite place before some other bird hunter got to their favorite place. Now I only bird hunt on my private land. When I bird hunt I never let my dog get out of my sight. 2 years age the timber wolves almost killed my dog when he was less then 50 feet away from me at the edge of a field while I was working on some farm equipment right there so my dog is no longer ever out of my sight. So I have no horse in this race but there are some things I feel that people should be thinking about.

This is from Delta Waterfowl’s HSOforum.

Quote:

Who are the ducks’ biggest predators?

Due to factors such as weather, disease and food abundance—predator communities and populations vary by year and by region. Over the long term, predators such as red fox, raccoon, and striped-skunk tend to top the list of predators that impact nesting ducks.

Quote:

In many areas of intensively farmed landscapes the habitat threshold may not be attainable due to financial and political realities. Areas with high wetland densities will commonly attract 60-80 pairs of ducks per square mile, however most of these breeding pairs will not produce a single brood. Delta’s student research program has discovered that predator management can return areas back to productive landscapes for ducks once again, increasing nest success by two fold, averaging an increase from 24 to 48% nest success. Delta and its partners are using predator management in a targeted manner to areas that have high breeding densities - but are below the habitat threshold and subsequently experience low nest success.

In the video showing how it is done it shows a body gripping trap being set in a box. The very thing bird hunters are trying to ban.

A lot of the posts say that a trap ban should only be on public land. Here where I live about 95% of the land is public. That would be a big ban. Also my properly managed land will usually have at least 5 times more birds then the unmanaged or poorly managed public land around it so many of the bird hunters like to hunt as close to my property line as they can and many of them sneak onto my land every chance they can. What is to keep their dogs out of traps on my land? Dogs can't read No Trespassing signs and I firmly believe that predator control is just as important as habitat when it comes to bird numbers so there are traps on my land.

A lot of the posters here only seem to see rural MN for what they want to do there. They forget that all across rural MN there are people living there, people are dying and babies are being born. People are doing their best to support their families and raise their children as best they can. Rural MN is not just for recreation, it is also where people live.

Living in a rural area I am not used to driving in heavy traffic so when I go to the metro area it is harder for me driving in all that traffic. Wouldn’t it look a little stupid of me to ask that the people living in the metro area to not drive on the days I plan on being there so it is easier for me to drive? My tax dollars help build those roads and streets so shouldn’t I be able to use them the way I want just like some people want to have rural public land only the way they want it?

An interesting thing about how this issue is viewed. About 1 year ago a Twin Cities TV station ran a segment about dogs getting into traps. After the segment had run one member of the news team turned to the other and said, “It looks like something has to be done about those traps”. The exact same news segment ran on a Fargo TV station the next night. After the segment had run one member of the news team turned to the other and said, “Further proof that people need to keep their dogs under control“.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

That petition is basically one big step to end all trapping though. Wouldn't even consider putting my name on there or associating with the petition. The last lines in it state: "Trapping wild animals for fur should be a thing of the past - there is no good reason to allow the practice to continue today. We ask that you end the lethal trapping of wild carnivores."

The petition was obviously started by antis. My guess is if they don't like trapping, they probably aren't much in favor of bird hunting either. Might as well sign your own death warrant..

[Sota2Florida]

Tinkhamtown, you are asking for the end to hunting and trapping as we know it. The outdoorsman and women out West can tell you what happens when you get people in other states and countries signing petitions for what is "best" for Minnesota, Colorado, Montana etc.

All this has been set up by 6 dead dogs. Horrible of course but come on, we now have these worthless "news" agencies propagating petitions to end a style of trapping that was encouraged when I was a kid. If you cannot see the agenda here I fear for my future as an outdoorsman. Hopefully both sides can be wise enough to educate their kids and the neighbor kids about safe and ethical hunting and trapping before its too late.

JohnnyP and all the other trappers, I wish you the best. I hope all the State, Federal and public land stays available to hunters and trappers. Was it not originally purchased for that use? The WMA's I used as a kid were vital for me to enjoy the outdoors with.

[walleye101]

Unfortunately this topic was shut down on the trapping forum. Too bad because honest rational discussion is what this topic needs, lets try to keep it going in that direction.

First thing we need to agree on is that there is a problem. Good hunting dogs getting killed in traps doing what they are bred and trained to do is a problem. So is there a reasonable solution? A compromise where neither side looses but both give in a little? I would like to offer an idea as both a trapper and a dog runner.

Here are some facts.

The 220 trap is not the problem. It is the use of 220's in baited cubby sets, in places where they are likely to be encountered by dogs that is the problem. So lets not be talking about banning 220's on the ground or anyplace else. 220's are extremely effective on coon and SAFE when used as trail sets. They are also very effective and SAFE when used as partially submerged water sets. Lets focus on the problem set, the baited cubby, so if anything needs to be regulated it is the problem set, not the trap.

Baited 220 cubbies are primarily used for coon, fisher and bobcat. Smaller ones using 110's or 120's are often used for marten, or mink but those are safe so not a problem. Baited 220's are not effective as canine sets so that is not an issue.

Although coon, fisher and bobcat can all climb, elevated cubby sets are not nearly as effective, so that is not a reasonable solution for the trappers.

Coon trapping season is very long and spans most the hunting seasons, so more opportunity for conflict. Cat season is shorter but still plenty of overlap. Fisher season is currently a short 9 day season.

There are numerous alternatives to using baited cubbies for these animals but the set is often preferred for various reasons. One is that this set is very weather proof and can remain a workable set for long periods of time. But likely the main advantage is that lethal sets only have to be check every third day. For a long line coon trapper(running more traps) or part timer (checking before work), that can be more efficient. For cat trapping that is a huge advantage since cats range widely and may only come through an area once a week. Three day checks save lots of wasted trips. Fisher is a whole different story but the short 9 day season offers a fairly simple solution.

Minnesota trapping regulations already use northern forest zone and southern agriculture zone designations. Generally speaking most of the cat/fisher trapping occurs in the northern zone, and most of the coon trapping occurs in the southern zone. Yes, there are exceptions but that is primarily the case.

The southern zone is also primarily private land, with public hunting areas (WMA's) at a premium. Those are obviously the places most likely to be heavily hunted so lets keep baited cubbies out of those obvious problem areas.

Use baited cubbies on private land with landowner permission. I know from experience it is not hard to get permission to trap coon on private ag land. If hunters also get permission it is totally reasonable to ask if anyone is trapping there.

The other main source of public land in the southern zone is road right of way. Keep baited cubbies out of those as well. There are plenty of effective coon sets to use in those areas like the 220 trail set, dog proofs, leg holds in water crossing etc. Using a baited cubby next to a public road is asking for trouble.

The northern forest zone has an abundance of public land so plenty of opportunity for hunting dogs and trapper conflict. Coon are certainly present in the northern zone but not nearly as abundant as in the south. There are plenty of alternatives for catching coon on public land in the forest zone, so it would not be a huge sacrifice to give up the baited cubby in the early fall. Use them on private land with permission but keep them off public land during the main Oct-Nov hunting seasons.

Fisher/cat seasons have generally opened concurrently the weekend after Thanksgiving. Allow the baited cubbie on the ground during the 9 day fisher/cat season, and publicize it well. This is a dangerous week for dogs and advise folks to hunt only at their own risk. This is no different than taking deer season off when no one would think of running their dog.

When fisher season closes get the baited cubbies off public land. Continue to run them on private land with permission, but it is really not fair to tie up public land for a month and a half for trapper use only. For late season cat trapping lets give trappers a three day check on leg holds like most of the western cat states. A dog stumbles into a leghold set and it is just unpleasant experience not a lethal encounter.

How about that plan for a reasonable compromise?

[LOTWSvirgin]

FYI I have set a bunch of bucket sets on public land today so be carefull

[walleye101]

FYI I have set a bunch of bucket sets on public land today so be carefull

"honest rational discussion is what this topic needs, lets try to keep it going in that direction."

[jparrucci]

Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me. No changes for any private land or water sets, and removing baited bucket sets for much of the Oct thru Nov months would drastically reduce risks. I also think the season for Martin and fisher could be moved back a week or two till Dec 1.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me. No changes for any private land or water sets, and removing baited bucket sets for much of the Oct thru Nov months would drastically reduce risks. I also think the season for Martin and fisher could be moved back a week or two till Dec 1.

+1. And end the grouse season at least by Dec. 1 or sooner.

[walleye101]

Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me. No changes for any private land or water sets, and removing baited bucket sets for much of the Oct thru Nov months would drastically reduce risks. I also think the season for Martin and fisher could be moved back a week or two till Dec 1.

Hey, now we are talking about reasonable rational solutions, rather than just finger pointing.

[swampman]

I would agree with most of your idea's walleye I do use some baited cubbys this time of year on wma's and wpa's but there is nobody else out there. I also think the northern zone seasons could be adjusted some to prevent overlap of hunting/trapping conflicts. I don't think most trappers are unreasonable but alot of the disscussion on these threads swung far to the left right away, instead of reasonable talk we got alot of" we need to get rid of these things" and the trappers dug there heels in. IMO

[walleye101]

Digging the heels in and insisting there is no problem is one strategy. I just don't like the odds of convincing the majority of dog owners and the general non-trapping public that there is no problem. I am a trapper who uses 220's frequently and it is hard for me to convince myself there is no problem.

[Recon]

My main problem with these sets has always been that "game bird parts are used as an attractant or bait," by some trappers! I have yet to see a trapper suggest outlawing game bird parts as a lure or attractant to these sets! Too me this would be a very reasonable step in the right direction and my encounters with these sets would probably have never happened!

[Trapper J]

This is reasonable and most responsible trappers are doing this already.Lets not forget what the under-lying issue is: to end trapping.I believe most hunters and trappers would think walleye 101's ideas are acceptable and very do-able.GOOD POST !

[swamptiger]

Quote:

When fisher season closes get the baited cubbies off public land. Continue to run them on private land with permission, but it is really not fair to tie up public land for a month and a half for trapper use only. For late season cat trapping lets give trappers a three day check on leg holds like most of the western cat states. A dog stumbles into a leghold set and it is just unpleasant experience not a lethal encounter.

I could live with that, but I'd rather see the cat season and the fisher/marten season run together, maybe lengthen the fisher/martin season and shorten the cat season a little, and allow 220s for the full season. Not typically many people with dogs running around in the woods in December anyway. This year was an exception due to mild temperatures and very little snowfall.

[swampman]

Digging the heels in and insisting there is no problem is one strategy. I just don't like the odds of convincing the majority of dog owners and the general non-trapping public that there is no problem. I am a trapper who uses 220's frequently and it is hard for me to convince myself there is no problem.

Again not disagreeing with you I am just saying that alot of talk on here went to 5 ft off the ground , totally submerged , get rid of them on public and private land,etc. It would'nt even occur to me to set a baited bodygrip on public land during the hunting season in the pheasnt zone.In the northern part of the state I think there might be a few more options. Nothing will be perfect for everybody.

[grousehunter]

+1. And end the grouse season at least by Dec. 1 or sooner.

That's crazy talk right there...grouse season should be extended to Jan. 31st like in Wisconsin....or maybe they should just outlaw dogs in the woods to make sure none end up hurt. I mean there are wolves, thin ice, porkies,roadways, traps etc....the woods is no place for hunting dogs. Keep them indoors where they are safe. Man we are becoming silly with all the micro-managing and fear driven actions.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

That's crazy talk right there...grouse season should be extended to Jan. 31st like in Wisconsin....or maybe they should just outlaw dogs in the woods to make sure none end up hurt. I mean there are wolves, thin ice, porkies,roadways, traps etc....the woods is no place for hunting dogs. Keep them indoors where they are safe. Man we are becoming silly with all the micro-managing and fear driven actions.

On a normal year in the northern zone, it really wouldn't make a dime's worth of difference, because it's not uncommon to have a foot of snow by Dec. 1.

[grousehunter]

I always hunted grouse through December when I lived in Duluth and Ely(1ft is nothing and when deeper the snowshoes come out)...so yea it might not make a difference for the masses, but there is no real reason to end the season before December either. People can factor the risks involved and make up their own minds if its worth hunting or not. I've had some really good grouse hunting in December.

Then again I really have no problem with leaving the trapping rules as they are. I think some trapper education courses might not be a bad idea for the trappers and public awareness. Where was the outcry before this year though? There is no protecting everything and everyone from something bad happening.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

People can factor the risks involved and make up their own minds if its worth hunting or not.

It's always worked that way in the past, but obviously, that isn't acceptable anymore..

But as I said, this particular season was an abnormal year, especially in the north.

[Random guy]

Some good posts with some great ideas. Another thing that happened as stated before the baited cubby on public land in the southern more "upland" area pose to be the main concern. I feel that single problem held some merit and I as a trapper was willing to see something worked out. Then what happened with this is the groups pushing it got greedy. It went from cubbies and 220's on land to ALL body grippers, on ALL land and then it even went to ALL water sets. That’s when the trappers dug in their heels and pulled back into a defensive position.