doe with bad genetics?

[psepuncher]

This doe had twins late last year, she may be batting a 1000.

Just wondering if it's a bad genentic issue, or normal for late cycling to occure.

what's up?

[Bear55]

So are you saying she had late born fawns last year and appears to be pregnant and close to dropping fawns now? Or she just had late born fawns and this is a pic of her?

[B. Amish]

how do you know it's the same doe from last year?

[psepuncher]

So are you saying she had late born fawns last year and appears to be pregnant and close to dropping fawns now?

yes,

{sorry to sound a little off key.}

[Bear55]

I would guess it is very possible that this is a genetic thing but it seams unlikely. Any idea how old she is? I think younger does often get bread late and as they mature they can come into heat early or right on time. It also could be very possible this is a different doe altogether or just a funny camera angle and she isn't pregnant at all.

[psepuncher]

how do you know it's the same doe from last year?

I run multi cameras and keep a log book tracking the deer on my 65 acres.

I've got 28 head of deer out here...which by doing some math is about average.

In the fall it thins out about 15-20% when the bucks disperse. leaving about 20

head of mixed does yearlings and fawns.

getting back to her-

she dropped about this time last year {but a week earlier}

Which might mean she's a good one to keep around for the 2nd cycle of breeding, {and attracting bucks late season}

So, Wondering if she too was born later which might make her cycle later by genetics? I don't know

She also has a weird coat on her, what's up with that?

Here she is last year, same spot camera's just a tad over on 2 trees west of the 1st picture, same spot though.

[psepuncher]

I would guess it is very possible that this is a genetic thing but it seams unlikely. Any idea how old she is? I think younger does often get bread late and as they mature they can come into heat early or right on time. It also could be very possible this is a different doe altogether or just a funny camera angle and she isn't pregnant at all.

Trust me her fawns last year were as big as a fox's on bow opener

...well they were small and full of spots.

I had pics of them too . If I can find them I'll post them.

edit, she's going on 4

[B. Amish]

I run multi cameras and keep a log book tracking the deer on my 65 acres.

I've got 28 head of deer out here...which by doing some math is about average.

In the fall it thins out about 15-20% when the bucks disperse. leaving about 20

head of mixed does yearlings and fawns.

if you really have 20 does and fawns on 65 acres, that is way way too many deer. that's probably why you're getting late fawns. she may have been ready to be bred at the right time, but with so many does, the bucks may have been busy servicing others.

99.9% sure it has nothing to do with genetics.

[B. Amish]

using a straight ratio... 28 deer on 65 acres = 275 deer per sq mile.

even if the 28 deer on your 65 acres were the only deer in the section, that's still a high deer per sq mile number.

[slimngrizzly]

Well in heavy hunted parts MN where our buck to doe ratio is not that well balanced, its not that uncommon for does not to get bred until their 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th cycle. This would result in the fawns being born very late.

In an area with a close buck:doe ratio the does would be bred in Nov. and fawns would be born in spring and develope fully by fall/winter.

Heavy buck harvest/pressure would account for this. Thats what happens when gun season coincides with the rut.

I would say its NOT genetic because the estrous cycle is caused by photoperiodism and is a result of daylight.

So whether its the same doe or not... if shes pregnant now... its because for one reason or another, she didn't get bred until late.

[psepuncher]

using a straight ratio... 28 deer on 65 acres = 275 deer per sq mile.

even if the 28 deer on your 65 acres were the only deer in the section, that's still a high deer per sq mile number.

we have 3.25 bears here too.

[psepuncher]

Well in heavy hunted parts MN where our buck to doe ratio is not that well balanced, its not that uncommon for does not to get bred until their 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th cycle. This would result in the fawns being born very late.

In an area with a close buck:doe ratio the does would be bred in Nov. and fawns would be born in spring and develope fully by fall/winter.

Heavy buck harvest/pressure would account for this. Thats what happens when gun season coincides with the rut.

I would say its NOT genetic because the estrous cycle is caused by photoperiodism and is a result of daylight.

So whether its the same doe or not... if shes pregnant now... its because for one reason or another, she didn't get bred until late.

Ther's lots more does than bucks for sure out here.

The way we manage is mature does and bucks outside the ears are only harvested.

I've been on this propety for 3 years and I've always seen young bucks during hunting on stand, and mature bucks at night on camera.

[LightningBG]

Sounds like you need some "help" getting those numbers down...

[slimngrizzly]

Well.... thats great that you guys have a good management plan, it will certainly make a possitive impact, but unfortunatly with only 65 acres you could still lose the majority of the bucks from your land to hunters in the surrounding.... couple of miles anyway.

I would say where im at, based on my camera observations, for every 10 bucks i know of Im not surprized to see only 3 make the season. The ration may be close now, but that can change quickly during the coarse of gun season. I will say that I think this is getting better and better though.

One thing about genetics is if you dont like what you have, there really isn't anything to do about it. I beleive theyve proven even the most intensive "culling" strategies dont really change anything in the wild.

Hopefully your doe has her twins and they do great!

[psepuncher]

Sounds like you need some "help" getting those numbers down...

[Bear55]

Trust me her fawns last year were as big as a fox's on bow opener

...well they were small and full of spots.

Not doubting she had late fawns last year, I just don't know we can say for sure she is pregnant from that photo and going to have late fawns again this year. I don't even think anyone can say with any certainty it's the same deer without any defining characteristics. You can get multiple shots of the same buck, and even with a rack to identify it can be hard to tell if its the same deer or not, let alone being able to tell the difference between 28 different deer with most of those being does.

[BobT]

Quote:

I run multi cameras and keep a log book tracking the deer on my 65 acres.

I've got 28 head of deer out here...which by doing some math is about average.

In the fall it thins out about 15-20% when the bucks disperse. leaving about 20

head of mixed does yearlings and fawns.

I still have to ask, how do you know this is the same doe? How do you know you have 28 head? I don't see any ear tags or other markings that can be used to identify one from another.

[psepuncher]

I'm not trying to prove it's the same doe, That photo doesn't prove it by any means.

If there's not as many deer as to what I know there is { by seeing them herd up late winter through spring and many pics of not only seeing different colorations, markings, size, and pics of does with fawns some single, twins and triplets...some dry.} Then the chances of it being the same doe may go up a very great deal.

The answer was made clear with additional good points to consider. I can appreciate that.

Thanks Slim.

[BobT]

I hear others say they hunted the same buck year after year or saw the same doe over and over yet there are no discriminating marks to truly identify the animals to that degree. My brother has done this and I've asked him the same question and the answer usually sounds more like what he believes without any real proof. We have owned horses for over 20 years and I still can't tell one from another unless their colors are significantly different and they do have color markings that can be used to identify them whereas one average deer looks like another, at least to me anyway. Even bucks with their head ornaments would be very difficult for me to identify unless one had some very unique points or something.

[psepuncher]

How about if I said the chances are better if the number of head is lower.

Then we have her being pregnant obviously, . Carrying late as she did last year. And in the same area she gave birth as last year. I'm not sure but Adult does do that right?

Peak fawning takes place in late May and June and begins when pregnant does isolate themselves and drive other deer from their fawning areas. Adult deer use the same areas each year. The establishment of fawning territories is thought to limit social stress and help distribute populations evenly. Territories also may prevent newborn fawns from imprinting on deer other than their mothers.

It seems logical to me.

[hockeybc69]

Unless there is a distinguishing mark on the body of the deer, I dont have a clue year to year what deer is what. Bucks included most of the time.

I have a deer at home that had a smashed rear leg and it healed very wierd. As of last year she was at least 5.5 years old, since I had her on cam 4 years and she wasnt a yearling when I first got her on cam. (I have NEVER seen her while on stand)

At our farm I have had a doe with a big tear on her rear leg that I would assume was from a barb wire fence. That scar is very noticeable. She was around 3-4 years.

Also at the farm, we had a yearling a couple years ago with absolutely no tail... I got pics of her this winter.

Without something like that, I wont even claim to know a deer is the same year to year.

Bucks, once they are mature, I do believe they carry a very similar antler frame, so that works. But people that think they can tell a buck that was 1.5 and now at 2.5.... Not buying it. Too much can change in rack configuration in my opinion in that age range. 2.5 to 3.5, at least you have a chance of seeing some similarities.

Does..... Good luck distinguishing most.

28 deer on 65 acres.... Man, I gotta buy land by you!!!!

[BobT]

Sorry, I didn't mean to take this thread off topic. I was just curious.

Suppose a doe does tend to drop fawns later in the year. How old do they have to be in order to have a fair chance of surviving an average MN winter? I guess it would have a lot to do with the location. I'm thinking on average southern MN winters will be easier to survive than northern. Although, the cold isn't always a real hardship. I think snow depth is a bigger concern as it makes it harder to find food and avoid predators. The way the snow is blown into the cover areas down south, that could be a problem too.

[psepuncher]

Unless there is a distinguishing mark on the body of the deer, I dont have a clue year to year what deer is what. Bucks included most of the time.

I have a deer at home that had a smashed rear leg and it healed very wierd. As of last year she was at least 5.5 years old, since I had her on cam 4 years and she wasnt a yearling when I first got her on cam. (I have NEVER seen her while on stand)

At our farm I have had a doe with a big tear on her rear leg that I would assume was from a barb wire fence. That scar is very noticeable. She was around 3-4 years.

Also at the farm, we had a yearling a couple years ago with absolutely no tail... I got pics of her this winter.

Without something like that, I wont even claim to know a deer is the same year to year.

Bucks, once they are mature, I do believe they carry a very similar antler frame, so that works. But people that think they can tell a buck that was 1.5 and now at 2.5.... Not buying it. Too much can change in rack configuration in my opinion in that age range. 2.5 to 3.5, at least you have a chance of seeing some similarities.

Does..... Good luck distinguishing most.

28 deer on 65 acres.... Man, I gotta buy land by you!!!!

Just to the right orange maker is where she is on camera and where I hang my stand.

Below the big lake is all cat-tail swamp. Not much room for a few hunters but the deer are in there thick as thieves.

Funny thing about cat tail swamps and transition zones, is It's a heck of a place to rattle them in. My son bagged a couple brutes there.

I don't know about buying land anywhere near here as it's all private. But if

the swamp goes it'll dismantle the deer for sure around here.

[psepuncher]

Sorry, I didn't mean to take this thread off topic. I was just curious.

Suppose a doe does tend to drop fawns later in the year. How old do they have to be in order to have a fair chance of surviving an average MN winter? I guess it would have a lot to do with the location. I'm thinking on average southern MN winters will be easier to survive than northern. Although, the cold isn't always a real hardship. I think snow depth is a bigger concern as it makes it harder to find food and avoid predators. The way the snow is blown into the cover areas down south, that could be a problem too.

I've got another goofy ball story. this past winter I actually saw a few frozen deer and one was still standing.

Pretty sad to see, but it wasn't easy on any of them last winter.

This spring in mid May when it warmed up, the newborn fawn reports where all about the same time. It was when we had that first dry warm day. It went from the 60's* to 70* and the does seemed to drop them at the same time.