Get the lead out

[Guest]

This was copied from
http://www.niehs.nih.gov/oc/factsheets/lyh/leadpoisn.htm
Something to think about.

"Lead accumulates in our environment. As we keep using more lead, there will be more lead in the environment."

[BradB]

fishlakeman--

If you use Ballistic Products, Inc. reloading shot as a price bogey, you get the following:

Bismuth: $11.43/lb
Steel: $2.40/lb
Lead: $1.37/lb

Even so, I think you are quite right in your comparison to the gun buy back program. This lead issue is a red herring that the environmentalists, whether by scientific ignorance or "feel good-ism", are wasting time and effort on. Our state government should not be funding this tackle exchange program and should spend their time on more pressing concerns. Ones that might actually make a real difference.

Folks are free to pay more for non-toxic alternatives, but I believe you are fooling yourself into thinking that you are making a difference if you do.

[Guest]

Fishlakeman
There is going to be an exchange at Gander Mtn in July. This does not cost anything and should save you some money.
I agree with you on the mercury issue, they need to lower the coal burning emissions, but this is a serious problem and should not be ignored.

------------------
50% of something is better than a 100% of nothing. Nice fish!

[Guest]

Rich Smith, the owner of the Safe Jigs Co. and Bio-Bait Co. will join me as my guest on the April 29th Fish-N Line Radio Show.

Rich is a long time "river-rat" and fishes the Mississippi River on a regular basis.

Rich will discuss his new products which he calls.... "NATURE FRIENDLY". Safe Jigs are an alternative to lead and made of bismuth. Bio-Bait is made of soy beans and real prae flesh... crawlers, creyfish, leeches, shiner minnows, maggots, waxworms, and mealworms. Rich will speak to the use of these nature friendly products and the enviornment. You may call in to speak to this issue or tune in for the brodcast from 9:05am to 10:00am. at 1-800-374-5966 and 1080 on your am dial. The show will be streamed on www.catch-n.com all week. Here is the link for the broadcast...
http://www.catch-n.com/fishnline.html

I would like to thank Rich in advance for being my guest on the Fish-N Line Show and for providing these alternative products.
Catch'n
Dave Hoggard

------------------
Fishermen are catch-n on
Catch'n Tackle
For Bass, Walleye, Pike, Lakers, Trout, Panfish
Used by FishingMN Family

[BradB]

Frozenminnow,

That link discusses the well documented issue with lead paint and lead plumbing, not fishing tackle. As has been stated many times in this thread, no one is contesting the toxicity of lead. But just because a substance is toxic when it is ingested in one way (eating paint chips, drinking water with high lead contents from a house with old plumbing), does not mean that substance is a problem everywhere it is used.

Let's not confuse this issue with that of lead fishing tackle, which is a completely different story. Again, lead in tackle is perceived to be a problem because loons and other waterfowl physically ingest the lead and grind it up in their gizzards. This is a very different issue than the paint and the pipes.

[CrappieJohn]

Brad B.....Thank You!

------------------
Plastics...making better fishermen without bait! Good Fishing Guys! CrappieTom

Culprit Tackle Crappie Pro Staff
[email protected]

[Guest]

Brad:
Not to confuse things but that was just an example, of how harmful it is. Lead is lead no matter how it is introduced to the body, river lake or loon.

[BradB]

Frozenminnow,

I understand that lead is harmful, and I’m glad we can discuss this in an amicable manner. I do not agree with you that lead introduced to a river or lake is as harmful as lead introduced into a body or a loon. How the contaminant is introduced to the animal is as important as its toxicity. If the animal does not ingest it, it cannot be toxic to the animal. Don’t you agree?

This is a fairly complicated issue that I don’t believe can be reduced to just the “lead is toxic” argument. Let’s review the facts.

First off, nobody is arguing anywhere that I can find that lead is not toxic for both humans and wildlife. Lead pipes, lead paint, and lead shot for waterfowl hunting has been prohibited as it has been shown kill or otherwise adversely affect wildlife and humans.

Secondly, the issue that generated this discussion is the use of lead sinkers and jigs for angling. A number of different scientific studies conducted in the 90’s and to the present have shown that the cause of death of certain percentages of deceased loons has been lead poisoning. They died specifically because the ingested lead shot (now banned for waterfowl hunting) and/or lead fishing tackle and ground it up in their gizzards.

Thirdly, the chemistry of lead is such that it does not dissolve readily unless it is in an acidic environment (such as a gizzard). Yes, it does dissolve weakly in your average aqueous environment, but not rapidly and not to any deleterious effect. The avian gizzard both grinds the lead into smaller particles (increasing surface area) and has acidic conditions that make the lead go into solution better.

Fourthly, although certain waterfowl, including some loons, have been shown to have died from lead ingestion there is no evidence that the population of any of these species is at risk due to the use of lead fishing tackle.

Personally, I do not feel that the data justifies a reduction in the use of lead tackle on the basis of an adverse effect to wildlife populations. Here is what I think is happening. On the basis of the scientific studies discussed above, well-meaning environmentalists have taken this issue to mean that lead tackle should be reduced and ultimately banned. I think they have made the emotional leap between the discovery of anecdotal loon mortality to a need to reduce and ultimately ban the use of lead tackle.

Worse, a state agency staffed by these types of people has taken to spending state tax dollars to promote the exchange of lead tackle for non-toxic alternatives. I believe they are fooling themselves into thinking that they are making an environmental difference, and they are preaching this on the taxpayer’s dime whenever given the chance.

Tackle manufacturers have no doubt done risk assessments of their own, and have probably concluded that there is no real environmental benefit to the reduction of lead tackle. They probably also have concluded that their manufacture of so-called “non-toxic” tackle will allow them to increase sales (anglers need to restock their gear) and increase their margin on the individual products they sell (higher material costs allow them to sell for more). It would appear to be a wise business decision, as everyone knows that “lead is unhealthy” and consumers will more easily understand a pitch such as “lead is bad, buy this” then “lead is bad, but not bad in this case”. They are in business to make money by selling tackle, and this would appear to be a no-brainer. I do not fault them for this and believe they are doing what they have to.

So, in the end, it is a complicated matter. As I’ve said many times, you are free to buy these alternative tackle products and I have no problem with that. I do, however, resent state dollars going to fund these efforts, as I do not find them justifiable.

[Guest]

Brad:
I am also glad that we can have this discussion on the topic in an adult manner keeping level heads and and good points have been made by all for both sides.

As for the post regarding the Autos?

The Automotive industry is the leading source for lead use, for the batteries. Over the years the restrictions for disposal of such batteries has been tightened.
I can remember the days when Union Compressed Steel scrap yard used to dump car batteries right on the ground and there was lead plates laying all over the palce from broken battery cases. The soilhad to be removed from the site to build the paper mill because it was so contaminated with lead and sulphiric acid it is now incased in a holding tank in the front yard of the mill. This place was right on Keene Creek a former excellent trout stream and is a contributor to the St. Louis River. I am just glad that they stopped it before it became any larger of a problem.

I am not saying that if you lose a sinker or a lead head that it is a guarntee that a bird or fish is going to die, but if enough people lose enough lead tackle over enough years,it may become a problem. And? Judging how long lead tackle has been used and lost? I'm sure there is a growing concern to be looked at.

Here is an answer?
You don't have to "Replace" all your lead right now, but if you "Restock" can we all consider alternatives?

As far as the state agencies taking a hit here? If they were'nt studying this, they would be using the funds elsewhere like tracking the movements of wild rabbits in urban areas lol
The non game wildlife fund is funded also by lottery players and the check box on our income tax forms.
I have seen the state of Minnesota waste money on much larger and more useless projects this one may actually help the state to remain on the top edge of quality living.

[1Yogi]

To all interested I'm putting my money where my mouth is and buying casting equipment.
I found a supplier of nonferrous metals in New York. Here is some specific Data
The product comes in 2.5 lb cakes as opposed to ingot form. looks like a hockey puck not a Candy Bar
It consists of 60%Tin 40%Bismuth
Melting point is 385 degrees F
It is approximately 75% by volume Lighter tha lead. This means the Same mold for a 1oz lead ball weighs 3/4 of an oz
or a 1/4 oz jig weighs 3/16 of an oz.
10lb lots of 2.5lb cakes cost$18.80 per lb
20lb lots cost $16.69 per lb
50lb lots cost $10.29 per lb
100lb lots cost $ 8.18 per lb

The 100 lb price break get the cost per oz down to $.51 cents per oz

Is there enough intrest for people to get a buying group together?
I'm in for 20lbs at 8.18 per lb

PS 1, 2.5 lb cake costs$63.00 per pound
I therefore did not include smaller quantity costs.

[This message has been edited by 1Yogi (edited 04-26-2004).]

[Guest]

I would be in if we can get 3 more for the hundred lb lot 20 lbs can makes lots sinkers. My dad left me some molds for eggs and split shots, I never used them because I didn't wanna mess with the lead but this sounds like a good safe idea.
shoot me an email possibly we could get a get together going and pour some alternatives.

frozenminnow at mcleodusa dot net
(virus protection)

------------------
50% of something is better than a 100% of nothing. Nice fish!

[Northlander]

Thats why I dont get rid of my lead. I cant afford to give away stuff if I dont get equal return. I bet a lot of guys feel that way.
Dont get me wrong I do use a lot of non lead products but they are still more expensive by quite a bit. I havent found any non lead products that are equal or less priced.
I will stop by Gander in Duluth when you guys are there and see if its worth my while to do this. If its close you can have my lead.

[KJM]

This is Minnesota Office of Environmental Assistance (OEA) posting again to provide additional background information.

The discussion about scientific studies and data on lead ingestion, loon mortality, etc has been both lively and interesting.

While there has been some limited research, we concur that it is not known the extent to which lost fishing tackle is impacting individual Common Loons, and the population as a whole.

Scientific data in other parts of North America, collected over several decades, indicate that lead fishing tackle can pose risks to wildlife, including the Common Loon.

Lead poisoning resulting from the ingestion of lead fishing tackle has been identified as a significant cause of Common Loon mortality throughout eastern Canada, the eastern United States, and Michigan. The toxic effects of lead are well documented and confirm a direct link between ingestion of lead fishing tackle and mortality.

We thought that many of you would be interested to know that earlier this year OEA -- in partnership with DNR and several other organizations -- submitted a proposal to the Legislative Commission for Minnesota Resources (LCMR)to address the need for state-specific scientific research on this topic.

If funded, this project would help us better understand the various causes of loon mortality here in Minnesota, by collecting approximately 30 dead loons each year over a five-year period and conducting necropsies to determine cause of death.

This project would also continue to educate Minnesota anglers and retailers about non-lead tackle alternatives and help them shift toward non-toxic fishing products.

The third project result, if funded, would be to work with Minnesota fishing tackle manufacturers to help them overcome the technical and financial challenges they face in gradually substituting non-toxic raw materials for lead currently used in production processes.

We know that most like the idea of more research on this important topic. You can help by expressing your support for this LCMR project.

Thanks for your consideration.

OEA

[KJM]

One more posting from the Minnesota Office of Environmental Assistance (OEA)...

We wanted to share with you that one of our "entry points" into this issue is the use of lead in manufacturing tackle and other lead-containing products. Our concern is not aimed solely at the recreational use of lead tackle by anglers.

In a recent report to the Minnesota Legislature assessing the risk of 106 toxic chemicals emitted by our state’s manufacturers, lead was one of the top 25 pollutants identified as a priority because of its potential to cause cancer and other serious illnesses to humans as well as is a serious toxin to wildlife.

As part of the our mission, we are actively supporting the efforts of Minnesota manufacturers to transition to non-toxic materials. By reducing the emissions from these activities we can have a big impact on reducing toxic pollution in our air, water and land.

OEA has led efforts to eliminate lead in various products such as electronics, supports a statewide network of household hazardous waste collections sites for lead and other problem materials, and is working with tackle manufacturers on non-lead alternatives.

Several tackle makers are now successfully using tin, bismuth, and other materials to make high-quality products. But more needs to be done. This challenge, combined with the impact of lead poisoning on wildlife, was a major motivation for the “Get the Lead Out” educational effort.

The OEA will continue to offer research and development assistance to find alternatives to lead and other toxic materials in products, as well as low-interest loans to help them move to non-lead products. The U.S. EPA has recognized our collaborative approach and recently awarded Minnesota a grant to continue our educational and partnership-based efforts with nonprofit education and outdoor groups.

We're always open to your ideas and would welcome suggestions of groups that may be interested in helping educate Minnesotans on improving our environmental quality.

Please feel free to contact us at 651-296-3417 or 800-657-3843, or e-mail us through our web site at moea.state.mn.us

Thanks!

[KJM]

Hello from the Minnesota Office of Environmental Assistance. We value this discussion very much and appreciate all persepectives and opinions.

We've been swamped with getting ready for the battery of lead tackle exchange events this season, and haven't been able to actively participate in your lively discussion.

We did, however, want clear up any misunderstandings about what an angler can expect if they come to an exchange event. As we have previously stated, the exchange events are educational and not one-for-one exchanges.

One key objective is to give anglers a chance to try out some the non-lead that is out there. Anglers can swap for non-lead tackle made from tin, bismuth, tungsten, steel, composites and ceramic.

Depending on what anglers turn in, lead tackle will be swapped out for non-lead jigs, split shot, bullet/worm slips, walking sinkers, and bell swivel weights in various sizes and colors.

Anglers who swap lead tackle will also receive a sample packet of Bullet Weights stainless steel tackle, including a jig with an interchangeable head that can be changed without untying the line.

Many of the non-lead jigs that are now out in the market -- and will be available for exchange -- are of high quality with costs similar to those made with lead. We have several sizes -- the common round headed 1/4 oz, and smaller supplies of 3/8, 1/2, 1/8 and 1/16 oz -- that will be used at exchange events. Most jigs used at the exchanges have red hooks. An angler turning in lead jigs can expect up to 12-15 non-lead jigs.

For those swapping in walking sinkers, bell swivels, and bullet and worm slip sinkers, we have two sizes of each style. Anglers who swap in lead counterparts can expect approximately 6-8 of each style/type. Again, this depends on what an angler comes to swap with.

Anglers can also anticipate a nice sampling of tin splitshot in #7, #5 and 3/0 sizes. This is product made by Water Gremlin Company in WBL.

On a final note, we have been working with retailers to help them stock more non-lead alternatives based on feedback from anglers participating in last year's series of exchanges.

We hope this email helps in providing a better picture of what to expect at an exchange event. We encourage all of you to swing by and try out some of stuff now available.

Thanks for your input, enthusiasm and support for Minnesota's natural resources and environment.

OEA

[walleyehawk]

KJM

As a taxpayer, I am curious how much this effort is costing me. With no disrespect intended, how much is the "Get the Lead out" state budget? How much is being spent in total? And how many people are involved in this effort.

Just wanting to get info.

Thank you

[BradB]

Kevin,

I would also like to see this information. Could you please post your annual budget for the "Get the Lead Out Program" as well as the number of personnel who are paid to staff it.

Thank you,

Brad

[BradB]

frozenminnow,

There should be no shame in a taxpayer asking how many of his or her dollars are being spent. Furthermore, those responsible for spending those dollars should be willing and able to provide the public with an accounting of how many of these dollars, and how they are being spent.

IMHO, I do not think that this program is scientifically justifiable. As this is my position, I think that the agency that spends the dollars that I provide them with ought to give me the facts I request. I am willing to give them adequate time to respond, but I would like an answer.

Please don't try to shame people into not asking these questions. The more we as citizens ask them, the better bang we will get from our government buck.

Brad

[This message has been edited by BradB (edited 05-01-2004).]

[Guest]

Brad:
Yes I agree that you have the right to ask how your money is being spent and it's a good thing to keep up on.

PLease don't get me wrong, I am not trying shaming anyone into anything. I was just stating that there are tax dollars being wasted in much greater ways than this, and nothing is being done or said about it.

To say that this is not scientifically worth it think about this.

Lead has been used since at least the early 1900's. so? Of all the tackle that your GG Grandfather G Father, and Father and yourself have lost a few among many including my family and myself?
This has to have had some impact on the lakes and it needs to stop at whatever cost.

An agreement between citizens and the government, to switch this over at the lowest cost possible to the individual seems like a better proposal than just ignoring the issue totally and think that it isn't going to get worse. Possibly some of the Outdoor stores such as Gander Mtn. and Cabella's could start a program and do a 1 on 1 exchange for cost? Yes it will cost them some money but at the same time they help out and does anyone ever buy just a pack of sinkers at Gander? LOL I never get out of there under 50 bucks,so a dollar or 3 for the non lead alternatives each visit is nothing that my pocket book is missing so far. The brass weights seem to work good.

Another is the ice fishing issue, the use of lead has almost zero impact due to you don't snag and the only lost lead is when the big guy broke the line, or them expensive jigs we (and yes I mean myself) have dropped down the hole. So the use of lead is hard to justify but it has to be done in a whole to be effective and fair.

Brad, Please don't take it wrong I have many lead jigs weights and other tackle that I am not going to be able to replace and they are going to be collectors items more than anything. I am not real happy about having to someday replace all of it I can but,it is going to have to be done sooner or later.

[Guest]

All of the complaints about how the state is spending money on this project? And to think we still have the welfare system and many other major wasted tax dollars,and the big complaint here is being directed at an area that is actually trying to help this state. Whatever the reason tax dollars are being spent there is always people for it and people against it.
Possibly there could be a volunteer box to check on your license or tax for that donates 1 dollar to the lead exchange fund, not just for tackle but lead shot etc. with this money can be put tward buying non lead and exchanging on a more 1-1 basis. Some tackle made of lead may never be reproduced in non lead, but getting all they can off the market is a good step foward for a better future. How about 50% off non lead for exchange? just a thought.

------------------
50% of something is better than a 100% of nothing. Nice fish!

[Guest]

Just another thought?
Could someone tell me the era when lead tackle was first introduced to the market?

[BradB]

Frozenminnow,

We have a fundamental disagreement that I’d like to acknowledge. As always, I have no ill intent and I appreciate the consistently polite way we’ve been able to discuss this issue. But that being said, here is the issue.

You have continually brought up your concern regarding the amount of lead that is being deposited into Minnesota’s waterways. You clearly consider this an environmental problem that should be addressed.

The “Get the Lead Out” program was created out of a concern for loon mortality due to ingestion of lead fishing tackle. My review of the scientific studies that generated this concern has shown to me that the use of lead-based tackle for fishing is not threatening the population of loons, or other waterfowl. As such, I do not think this program is a wise use of tax dollars.

Due to the chemical nature of lead, I do not consider the gradual accumulation of lead tackle in Minnesota’s waterways is an environmental concern. Lead is toxic and a carcinogen, so if individuals want to use alternative tackle to preserve their individual health then I believe it should be their choice to do so. However, I do not believe that any government agency should be actively counseling them to do so.

You believe lead is bad, we should stop using it, and it is an acceptable use of tax dollars to promote this change. I do not believe this, and do not think that state tax dollars should go for this effort. That is our essential disagreement.

Brad

[1Yogi]

The USEPA MCL for lead is 15 micrograms per liter. Do the math on how many liters are in a lake, and calculate back how many micrograms of lead that would take."
This ia a quote from a previous post.
Here are a few Numbers
1 liter=0.264172052 US Gallons
1 0z = 28.35 grams
28.35/8=3.54375 (1/8 oz sinker)
1 Gram = 1,000,000 mcg
mcg per 1/8 oz 3,543,750
I will grant that this is a big IF but if lead were completely water soluble that means that 236,250 liter of water could be contaminated. That's 62,410.647 Gallons of Water.
How fast does the lead leach into the water?
How many Gallons of water are in the average MN lake?
How much lead is lost each year in MN lakes?
If water has no effect on lead why is it recommended that I run the water for a while at home before I take a drink? I don't think it is just to ensure my water is cold.
If I take an 1/8 oz sinker and drop it in a Gallon of spring water how long will it take for it to have toxic levels of lead?
P.S. I,m Still in to form a buying group for that material.

[This message has been edited by 1Yogi (edited 05-02-2004).]

[This message has been edited by 1Yogi (edited 05-02-2004).]

[BradB]

Yes, the USEPA MCL is 15 ug/L and the Canadian MAL is 10 ug/L. These numbers are for dissolved lead, in water, and based on consumption of 2 liters per day over a lifetime. Lead sinkers dissolve very weakly and very slowly, and it is not correct to assume that a 15 ug lead sinker thrown into 1 liter of water will result in 15 ug/L dissolved lead.

If lead weights dissolved like sugar, then there would be an issue. But the fact is they do not.

[1Yogi]

Brad,
I asked for data as I gave some, it is nice that you think lead won't leach into the gallon of water but how long before you won't drink any? The fact is that some of the lead does become water soluble. Even if it dosen't dissolve like sugar. Again I ask How long will it take for the water to become toxic? Recommendations are that when I take a drink of water from the faucet I run the water to ensure that I get lead levels reduced, and that is just if the water sits overnight, and from solder that is only partially composed of lead.