Do fish feel pain ?

[nut gather]

Just thought I would shake things up a little.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/907199.asp#BODY

LONDON, April 30 — Anglers take note — British scientists say that after years of debate, they now have proof that fish feel pain.Animal activists are on the warpath after a study released on Wednesday showed how rainbow trout react to discomfort. They condemned fishing as cruel and demanded an end to the sport — but anglers themselves dismissed the study.
THE RESEARCH FOUND that fish have receptors in their heads and that subjecting them to noxious substances causes “adverse behavioural and physiological changes.”
“This fulfils the criteria for animal pain,” said Dr. Lynne Sneddon who headed the research, published on Wednesday by the Royal Society, Britain’s national academy of science.
Bee venom or acetic acid was injected into the lips of some of the trout, while control groups of fish were injected with saline solution or merely handled.
The trout injected with venom or acid began to show “rocking” motion — similar to that seen in stressed higher vertebrates — and those injected with acetic acid began rubbing their lips in the gravel of their tank.
“These do not appear to be reflex responses,” Sneddon said.
The affected fish also took three times longer to resume feeding activity compared to those in the control groups.
The team from the Roslin Institute and the University of Edinburgh found the fish had polymodal nociceptors — receptors that respond to tissue-damaging stimuli — on their heads.
It is the first time these receptors have been found in fish. They have similar properties to those found in amphibians, birds and mammals including humans.
Animal activists said the findings showed that fishing was cruel.
“We would encourage anglers to lay down their rods. It’s ridiculous that in 2003 we are still talking about whether fish feel pain — of course they do,” Dawn Carr of the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) told Sky News.
But anglers vowed to keep on enjoying their sport.
“Until we have proper, bona fide evidence, we will never know. It’s supposition,” said Charles Jardine, director of pro-angling group Gone Fishing.
“I don’t think the millions of anglers throughout the whole of the world would see themselves as cruel individuals.”

[pikehunter]

You know what? I think PETA's right. Down with fish in pain!! Know what else? I'm sick and tired of those big bully northerns inflicting pain on unsuspecting smaller fish.
Maybe I should write PETA a letter and let them know that on May 10 I'll be doing my part to eliminate fish pain by launching an all-out assault on predator fish!

[Jim W]

Not again!

This is painful!!!LOL

Jim W

[Guest]

My answer to "Do fish feel pain?"....Who gives a **ck! Screw peta and the rest of those animal rights a-holes.
This is just my opinion and I'm expressing it because--it is my right as an American!

[Guest]

Do you think i give a rats A$% about what PETA says? NOPE! For all i care they can shove this up their a$$ and turn it side ways and i hope that hurts!

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AKA fishstunner

[waterwolff]

I can hardly wait for the ensuing report in which we find out that all plant life also feels pain. Than what. Who funds these studies anyhow. What a waste of time and money to come up with such dribble

[Blackstarluver]

Well here we go again. Didn't Minnesota pass a bill into law a few years ago making hunting trapping? and fishing an inalienable right to the citizens of MN? Sure you need a license to practice the aformentioned activities, but it is your right to have access to the licenses and other legal forms you need to hunt fish trap. Lets make a deal with peta; We will support their right to protest as long as they support our right to disagree and to practice lawful activities. So long as we have people to pass conceal and carry laws (I couldn't care less) we have a governor who participates in the gov's opener (fishing, hunting) resturants that sell fish and meat, tailgating at the game, and people who celebrate summer, proliferating the air with the sweet smell of the backyard grill, we will have no problems. I haven't seen any vegan anti fishing protesters in rural MN anyway. In closing I can only say this LIFE IS PAINFUL!
JC

[Guest]

‘We would encourage anglers to lay down their rods. It’s ridiculous that in 2003 we are still talking about whether fish feel pain — of course they do.’
— DAWN CARR
PETA

It's ridiculous that in 2003 we are still talking about PETA.

Miss Carr. I encourage you to go lay down by your dish.

And another thing Miss Carr. I promise I wont inject any fish with bee venom which is carried through a fishes bloodstream. I promise to keep hooking them in thier mouth where they have no feeling. Make sense??

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Mille Lacs Guide Service
651-271-5459
www.millelacsguideservice.com

[This message has been edited by Derek Johnston (edited 04-30-2003).]

[Guest]

ROFLMAO @ pikehunter...... Sweet..

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Mille Lacs Guide Service
651-271-5459
www.millelacsguideservice.com

[Guest]

if fish feel pain when hooked in the mouth how come they fight harder when hooked elsewhere?

[Aquaman01]

Plants do feel, and some plants see. Dig this -

A documentary I saw a few years ago showed a house plant wired up to an EKG-looking thing - they had readings (no surprise there) and then they cut off a leaf. The readings spiked. They cut off another leaf. Spiked. Now comes the cool part -

They wired up the plant again, and when the guy who cut off the leaves walked in the room - spiked.

I'm no scientist, but it convinced me that all life has some form of perception or another. I'm not saying that was pain - it may have been the plant mobilizing it's fluids to heal the wound or whatever, but it had perception and response.

Do I care? No. Did you ever see on the PETA site where they indicate that catfish are compassionate because they rear their young? Esox EAT theirs! If I was 3" tall and dropped in the river - nothing would be showing me any compassion!

I'm cool with the basic principles of animal rights -
eat less meat=use less resources,
animal research shouldn't be used for frivolous dump (cosmetics),
animals should be treated humanely and with respect. BUT the extremist presentations, and slanted science TOTALLY removes any credibility that an animal-rights organization might have. They would be better served to educate people on the health hazards of eating too much beef, than by going after anglers. Dumb dumb dumb.

"Everything in life has a gut-pile tied to it somewhere". - Ted Nugent

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Aquaman
<')}}}}}><{
Peace and Fishes

[Guest]

I'd like to take a slightly different approach to addressing this issue.

First of all, do fish feel pain? This study seems to indicate yes.

So even if they do, what then? Don't cattle feel pain when we slaughter them? While I'm sure it is humane as possible, cattle are killed all the time and the people at PETA benefit.

They might say "No I don't - I don't eat meat or wear leather, etc". But what they do not realize is how much cattle product is used around us everyday.

The remains from cattle after slaughter are rendered into many different chemicals and components. Some of these are:

Glycerin - used for many different commercial uses, including the making of nitro-glycerine and dynamite. Even if these are out of date chemicals, they are what made the roads all over the US.

Heparin - an anti-coagulent used in surgery throughout the US and the world. This keeps blood clots from forming in the bodies of post surgical patients, saving many lives.

Plywood - the glue in plywood is made in part from cow products.

Now, you can argue any way you want that cows are killed and experience pain. But I can not imagine how many lives have been made better by just the three products above.

Okay, so back to fishing - there are some theories that say that eating fish has a highly positive on the body. Seafood obviously has the chemicals but fish in general is good for you.

So two questions remain.

1.) Do we try to be cruel?
2.) Do we waste the fish or harm the environment

For question #1 I'd say no - none of us want to be cruel. If I saw someone torturing a fish or generall being a jerk, it would annoy me a LOT. I'd turn him/her in if I could.

And for question number 2, the same thought applies. Most of us do not want to waste fish. We eat them and enjoy it, but we don't kill them just to kill. Rather, there is a benefit of food that we enjoy. And again, if we saw somone we knew catching fish and then just throwing them away, most of us would go off on that one-who-thinks-I-am-silly.

Nor do we want to hurt the environment -we all recognize that if nature doesn't thrive, fishing will suffer. So we welcome new more efficient engines and other things that help out.

Just my $0.02.

[doubleUcubed]

Aqua, there are many experiments that have been done and can be done in connection with plants and pain/responses. I participated in a few of those experiments in college (also a BA in Biology) with hooking up very sensitive voltage meters and doing various things to plants. There are definitely changes in the chemical/electrical responses given off by the plants subjected to stimuli/injury. This is/can and will continue to be a long drawn out debate for others (not me) to invest their time in. I'm going fishin and hunting. I will also continue to work on my Satirical Paper Titled "PETAL", "People for Ethical Treatment of All Life". Good Luck hunting and fishing to all.

[Guest]

I think there should be one last study done for PETA. They should find out if People supporting PETA feel hunger.

It’s called a food chain. Something has to die so that something else can live.

I EAT FISH.

PETA if you would like to quit inflicting pain on living things, stop Eating. If that’s the case we would not have to worry about PETA for very long.

[Jim W]

All,

The more I think about it and hate to admit it, we are only doing PETA a favor by posting links to articles and having massive threads on the subject. Let's not do them anymore favors. Time to let this nonsense slip into the night eh?!!!

Keep the rods bendin'!!!

Jim W

[upnorth]

Why do we let those dolts at PETA upset us so much? They can say what they like, but I am not about to let them alter my thinking or ruin my day either.

I don't believe in cruelty to animals, but we have been eating fish and other animals since the dawn of time. Our bodies need protein for us to survive and function.

I also tend to believe that plants are living things and would probably have sensations similar to pain. Should we not kill anything to eat? Be real! We are all in the same food chain.

These PETA people should engage the brain prior to engaging the mouth.

[pikehunter]

You know, when I thought about this more, I realized there is a bit of a scary part this topic that hasn't been touched on yet.
Let's face it, PETA's not going to take away our right to fish, especially in a state where our freedom is so important our legislators will now allow us to pack heat (granted we have the easily obtainable permit.)
The real threat with this PETA issue is fishing tournaments. Fish feel pain: Big deal if your going to eat them anyway, and we could care less about what PETA thinks. But big businesses do care about public perception and if PETA starts spreading bad blood among the public about how many fish are tortured during a weekend Bass tourney supported by Company X, goodbye sponsors.
That's why it's important not only to support companys that support our way of life, but also be sure to keep them there. I feel these discussions do that.
I'll be the first to say it: If I hear about some company like WalMart pulling out as a tour sponsor because of PETA, they'll be permantly stricken from my lure-shopping budget.

Happy Fishin Fellas!

[Guest]

I've been doing research into fish feeling pain for a few years now and their brain stems are too small to feel the level of pain that humans actually feel. Without getting to complex all i will say is fish do feel discomfort, and anytime you run experiments on fish or catch them hook and line they experience certain levels of discomfort and there are certain levels of stress that fish endure while being caught or handled which may lead to them being dormant or not feeding for a short time. As far as peta is concerned I say "Death to Dawn Carr" This gal says we should lay down our rods and do the right thing, your telling me that this freak of a woman has never fished as a child? Just like the *******s that scream bloody murder for killing cattle, yet wear leather shoes!!

www.[PoorWordUsage]onpeta.com

[This message has been edited by Alaskander70 (edited 05-01-2003).]

[Blackstarluver]

I agree with Jim W!

[Guest]

well.....life's been on this planet for millions of years...something's always being hunted (and eaten)...ole "MA MATURE" figured we need protein...plain and simple (with pain or without pain)...certainly would have figured out a "painless demise" to it's creatures if it thought it necessary.....it chose not to...pain's just one of the side effects of being hunted and eaten...life needs those pain receptors to stay alive (so we don't walk into every tree in the forest and split our heads open .....lol) ...sure fish "hurt".......everything with some sort of blood flowing through it's body hurts....there's a place in nature for "pain"....part of the" big equasion"...gotta learn not to walk into that tree...lol!

[Guest]

should have been "MA NATURE"....sorry...lol

[simplefish]

The way I see it, just about anything that is "alive" feels pain one way or the other, whether it's manifests in actual pain as we know it, as heightened stress levels or in other ways. I believe some fish have more feeling in certain areas than other fish, depending upon where their nerve endings are situated. The human race was put on this earth as hunter/gatherers. In order to live a "natural" life we have to kill something to eat and survive. I have come to turms with this situation and have decided to help protect and renue our resources while taking advantage of the plentiful wildlife we have here in MN. I never take more than I need or can use and don't waste what I have. I don't think that PETA is totally wrong but I think they are extremests fighting over what we were naturally put here to do. Eat, live, and help control wildlife, not unlike other predators on this earth. This got kinda' lengthy and a bit preachy but I had to throw in my .02.