Dominance – what is it?

[Walleye Widower]

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[stumper]

Well Im very interested to see what comes of this thread. We recently got a 3 yr old Lab from the Humane society. He has been nuetered and is very well behaved when I am around. The problem is when My GF takes him for walks he jumps up on her,bites at her and if she happens to be sitting somwhere he will climb on and "go for a ride". She has tried her "firm voice" with him,tried a knee to the chest when he jumps. The vet recomended a tennis racket to pop him in the nose, but he just takes it away from her.The odd thing is that he dont do this all the time. It might be 1 day out of 3 or even be fine all day and out of the blue you see the white of his eyes and his teeth come out. He hasnt been vicious in his "attacks",but the fact that he is 103 lb Vs her 150 is making it hard for her. She has stopped using a leash while walking him and that has been helping I think. She walks him 3 to 6 miles a day when she can. What do I need to do?

[ESmith]

*edited paragraph out for brevity* - Esmith

What do I need to do?

First, there are better people to hear from on this than me. Second, I'd say it isn't what you need to do, its what your GF needs to do. When its just her and the dog, it sounds like the Dog thinks he is higher in the pecking order than your GF is.

I have heard several ways of establishing dominance over a dog. From "mounting" the dog to show dominance in "dog language", to grabbing the skin on the back of the neck and giving a good yank and being VERY firm in your correction voice.

While on a leash, you might try a pinch collar if a normal collar isn't working. Our dog is amazingly enthusiastic with a normal collar, but when the pinch collar goes on he is the best behaved dog in the world. Otherwise you can take the leash and run it down along his spine, then down around his belly just behind the rib cage, bring the leash back up and under the leash on top of his back, making sort of a "half hitch" on his belly, that will tighten when you pull on the leash. This is just as good as a pinch collar, and has been recommended to us by several professional trainers. It, like a pinch collar, is actually easier on the dog than a lot of other correction methods. Either one, the dog actually applies his own correction when he acts out. If he walks nice, there is no correction. Making it the dog's choice as to how he wants to be treated.

Your GF is going to have to take control. The dog may give a little yelp sometimes, but thats ok, as long as its done correctly and at the right times. If establishing dominance doesn't work for some reason (which I think it will work out in the end) it may not be a good match. Dog's are pack animals. You are either above them or below them in the pecking order. Our puppy tried "going for a ride" for a little while, that behavior wasn't tolerated one bit, and he soon found out about it. Problem solved pretty quickly.

Hope someone else chimes in with more detailed info, but thats what it sounds like to me.

[JayinMN]

Dominance is a pretty complex word when it comes to dogs but for a simple explanation its the desire to lead or be in control and dominance is often mistaken for agression, which it is not. I have to leave for work but will try to elaborate later.

Oh brother, mounting your dog, scruffying it and rolling are not establishing dominance, its just being aggressive with your dog and showing the dog your lack leadership....

[Walleye Widower]

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[gr8icefishinmind]

Also always remember that dogs live in the moment! If you are going to disapline your dog you need to do it as they are commiting the wrong act, not afterwards!!

To show dominance, you don't necessarily need to "mount" your dog! One way is to grab him under his shoulders with his back towards you and lift him straight while keeping his hind feet on the ground and hold him there for 10 seconds and work your way up to 90 or so seconds! If the dog stuggles tell him "bad dog" with a low growly voice and do not let him go cause if you do he will think that he won and therefore kept his dominance over you! If the dog is not struggling keep saying "good dog" in a softer voice! It takes a while but soon enough the dog will submit! You can do the same thing with the dog facing you! Another way is to have the dog sit in front of you while you are kneeling, then grab the dogs front legs and slightly lift them up and twist the dog til it lays down. Once down place one hand on his front shoulder and one on his rear hip but do not press down and while it lays tell it good dog, and if it begins to struggle give him a slight shake with your two hands and tell it bad dog in a low growly voice! Soon enough he will lay without struggling and more than likely raise it's hind leg showing its "goods" which shows that the dog has submitted!!

These exercises take time but do work! They work best on younger dogs as these types of things are what the mothers do when the pups misbehave!! When i got my pup i was able to watch him with his siblings and mother. Once he or one of the other pups got out of line, mother was right there to nudge one of the pups with her nose knocking them down and the pup would put his tail between his legs and surrender by laying down and rolling to his backside!

By doing the exercises i explained you are immitating what the mother does to her pups that shows that she is in charge!! I was told to do those exercises for 14 days straight and by then the dog would not struggle while doing them giving you the dominant role! For my pup it took about 3 days and then there was no more struggling now if he misbehaves i nudge him to his side and lay my hands on him and he gives in right away!

[gr8icefishinmind]

Walleyewidower, i am interested to hear your interpretation of dominance. You started the thread but never elaborated on what you think dominance is and how to gain that dominant role! This is kind of a tough topic cause every trainer and every dog owner has their own ideals when it comes to what dominance is and how to establish it.

[Walleye Widower]

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[Walleye Widower]

Walleyewidower, i am interested to hear your interpretation of dominance. You started the thread but never elaborated on what you think dominance is and how to gain that dominant role! This is kind of a tough topic cause every trainer and every dog owner has their own ideals when it comes to what dominance is and how to establish it.

What is yours, KILLER... ??

How is Willmar I grew up there?

[gr8icefishinmind]

ohhh willmar is willmar.....kind of a boring town still!! To me, dominance is having the respect of your dog and also having your dog trust you with the decisions you make for it!! If a dog doesn't respect you and doesn't trust you, you have a dog that will walk all over you and not listen to your commands!

[Todd Caswell]

My answer to all these undersirable actions ( mounting, mouthing, pulling on lead, jumping up ect. ) is train your dog. I guess thats why I don't see this kind of behavior with any FT dogs and very few HT dogs is because through daily training sessions while being consistant and fair with corrections you have already shown your leadership, No I don't think you need to be dominant over your dog just consistant.

In the case of the dog mounting the girlfriend , she needs a more active role in the dogs training, starting at the begining with basic OB, not off leash walks but on leash where she demands the dog stay at heel untill released, waiting at doors, waiting to be fed ect.

This stuff isn't rocket science, I respect my dogs and they respect me, do I hit my dogs NO but they may get a correction with the healing stick from time to time if they lift or scoot there butt on line after Iv'e told them sit.

Iv'e never had a dog mount my leg and if it did it would probably only be a one time thing.

[Walleye Widower]

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[Walleye Widower]

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[Walleye Widower]

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[Walleye Widower]

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[Harmonica Bear]

She is the kind if you "alpha roll" the results may not be so good. She is also the kind of dog you dont walk up to a bend over her.

I guess IMHO you should be able to do this to any dog. "Results may not be so good" isn't acceptable behavior. Certainly not in any dog I would own.

HB

[Walleye Widower]

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[Harmonica Bear]

I guess I wouldn't.

I believe you need to establish dominance and/or alpha status or whatever term you want to use, over your dog. Assuming alpha roll is rolling the dog on its back and having it under control in a submissive non-struggling posture and state. Not only for me, but anybody in my household. And I certainly would expect anyone could come up to the dog and bend over it.

Maybe I'm missing something there, or not understanding where you are going with that or what you are training for. For me, the dog is my hunting and household companion and the dog has its roles, jobs, etc, complete with trusted expectations.

[Walleye Widower]

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[Farmboy1]

I tend to agree with Walleyewidower.

Pack leadership does not come down to turning the dog over and forcing submission, but the subtle things he mentioned such as entering doors first, eating first, making the dog sit and wait to eat, removing food while eating, etc. All these things will do more to show dominance then a one time holding the dog down. To me, it is a mutual respect, not a dominance thing.

I also feel everything in training comes down to three things, consistency, consistency, and consistency. I would start by working with your girlfriend/wife (sorry, don't remember which), and work together. A standard sit, stay, walk 10 feet and come all on a lead with the two of them will help the situation. To me, the dog understands he can get away with things with her, and therefore does it. She lets him run off leash and he got his way, and has no reason to obey because he was not corrected.

I train with a 50' lead to a collar, and maintain everything within that range until I feel the dog know commands. If he slips, I can give immediate correction, and I have control of the situation. Once he earns the respect to be off this lead, he can be, but if he messes up, he goes back on immediately. This is as much dominance as I need to show him.

I do not believe in prong collars or anything else that will harm a dog. I feel if I cannot control him on a choke collar with quick, short corrections, then I simply need to spend more time training. I will not hit a dog, or use a electronic collar for correction until I feel the dog knows each command, and reinforce when he chooses not to listen.

This is my opinion, so please take it as such. I know there are some trainers, and some darn good ones, who use much harsher training methods then I use. Simply a different way, not better or worse.

[gr8icefishinmind]

I believe you need to establish dominance and/or alpha status or whatever term you want to use, over your dog. Assuming alpha roll is rolling the dog on its back and having it under control in a submissive non-struggling posture and state.

I agree 100% percent with you!! Rolling is one way to do as is holding your dog straight up in the air with his back towards you or his stomach towards you and his hind feet on the ground! If he struggles, hang on and give him a slight shake, not violently, and in a firm growly voice say bad dog! When he relaxes tell him good dog and keep up with the positive reinforcement while holding him!! This makes the dog trust you, and also show your pack leadership that you are above the pup in the pecking order!!

The best example i can think of is with a mother and her pups, just watch how the mother acts with her pups and how she keeps them in line. Alot of it is intimidation but you can see that the pups also respect her!!

[gr8icefishinmind]

I also agree with you walleye about going through doors first, being the leader while going on walks, making the dog sit and stay before giving the ok for it to eat and so on.......

[stumper]

Ok, sorry I didnt give enough info to go on..First off .We have had the dog 2 weeks now. He is just shy of 3 yrs old and 103 lbs. We got him from the humane society. He was the only dog out of about 60 that while walking through the kennel area didnt bark at us. When we took him out to the run area he was well behaved, sat when told, fetched, came when called even when going after his throw toy. My GF was sitting on the ground,he came up, sat next to her,leaned up and gave her a big lick on the cheak. The whole time he was listening to her comands.

The 1 hr drive home he sat quietly in the back seat of my truck and waited for her to tell him to come to get out at home.He was a perfect angel for about the first 3 days,then he started in on his behaviour changes. She was walking him many miles a day on a leash. When in our yard, a 3 acre lot surrounded by farm ground he is off the leash and has never left the yard.He has also not barked .

He may be fine for 2 hrs or 6 and then all of a sudden the whites of his eyes will appear as well as his teath and he becomes a different dog. Jumping up, biting,humping ect.Never biting hard enough to break skin or groweling. Even after this behaviour he listens well when told to kennel. She rewards him for good behaviour.. We realize we will need to put in some quality time with him. Its impossible to know what his previous training rituals were or how he was treated, but he apears to be very smart,so im not to worried I guess.

I apreciate all the replies and insite into this. My previous lab passed away after 13 yrs about a month ago. Fortunatly he never had these issues, but then I trained him myself as a pup.

[Todd Caswell]

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I most certainly DO NOT, hit, shake, alpha roll, squirt, stick hands in the mouth, pinch the ribs, whack noses, mount, throw rocks, hit with canoe paddles, or whatever other crazy things people say. It is very rare force needs to be used eastablishing yourself as a pack leader.

I'm not talking packleader stuff here I'm wondering what your "Correction" would be in this situation-----I'm on line in a training situation running a triple with a flyer bieing shot as the go bird , or last bird down, as the flyer is shot my dogs behind comes off the ground, he's steady and knows sit means sit.

My correction is " Verbal SIT ( STICK CORRECTION- swat on the butt) followed by a another verbal SIT. I don't use alot of E- collar corrections on line, and with a young dog that hasn't been conditioned to the stick I would just use a correction from the choke chain and a short lead.

And with a older dog I may or may not let him pick up the bird after the correction, sometimes not letting him pick up the bird and watching the bird boy pick it up means more than the physical correction to some dogs.

I agree with alot of the "Pack Leader" stuff but there are times when corrections are needed and somethings cannot be trained or gained with purely possitive reinforcement.

I'm just courious what your reply will be.

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When a strange dog approaches in a not so good manner I will place myself between the other dog and my dogs and tell the other dog to go away,

What happens when you politely ask the bad dog to leave and he doesn't??

[Walleye Widower]

I'm just courious what your reply will be.