7 Week Old Lab Issues

[Ralph Wiggum]

That's the beauty of a good obedience class, Chris! Teach them while they're surrounded by strange dogs and people. If you can get them to do it there, doing it at home is a breeze!

Morgan looks a little different than he does in your avatar, now, eh?

[Walleye Widower]

That's the beauty of a good obedience class, Chris! Teach them while they're surrounded by strange dogs and people. If you can get them to do it there, doing it at home is a breeze!

Morgan looks a little different than he does in your avatar, now, eh?

Interesting… why do that? Why not teach them at home under no distraction then move to an environment with distractions to proof the exercises.

To me, that makes the work very clear to the dog vs. a very distracting environment which is hard for a dog\pup to learn anything with all the “new” things going on. I think OB classes have there place but don’t think teaching things in that setting is a productive use of time.

I always want the exercise to be very black and white to the dog, no grey area. Maybe I am crazy, who knows….

I take it compulsion (correction based) training is used?

[Ralph Wiggum]

Walleye Widower,

As they say, there's more than one way to skin a cat. As of about a year and a half ago, I had never owned or trained a dog. I've subscribed to the methods used by my obedience trainers, and they have worked out very well for us (I do Rally Obedience trials with him).

Training classes aren't the only time one should be working on obedience. Daily practice sessions at home are key, they a weekly class helps to provide distractions, socialization, instruction, and motivation.

It's obviously a little trickier to get them to do something when there are other dogs around, but it's pretty easy to make the distinction between work time and play time. And, for me, when I really need him to obey, he's distracted by something. Might as well start off that way.

Like I said, there is no one way to train a dog. Lots of different methods work. This is what works for us, and I believe in it. I think as long as you have a method that you are consistent with and believe in, you can train a dog.

Oh, and I use a combo of a training collar for correction and praise (and occasional treats) for positive reinforcement.

[Walleye Widower]

Ralph,

Yes you are right, there are many ways to train a dog and it sounds like you like to have fun with your dog, that is great, I didn't mean to jump all over you at all.

I used to train with compulsion (correction based) style training. What I have learned is there is some other ways to do it that create a better bond, happier dog (on and off the field), etc. Good dog trainers constintly want to learn and dog training has definatly changed over the last 10-15 years.

I am not a pure motivational trainer nor a pure compulsion trainer, I like to be somewhere in the middle. I use corrections AFTER the dog knows 100% what I am asking to do, then if refuses a proper correction is administered, I use e-collars, pinch, flat collars whatever works with that dog.

I think a dog must go through a process.

1. teaching\learning phase (no corrections, I use food in a no distraction environment)

2. distraction phase (might be our in the yard with wife walking around, might be home depot parking lot, all depends)

3. correction phase (dog doesn't do what is asked it receives a correction, this is done along side #2)

4. maintenance phase.

I do this because I want a happy working dog that really looks and is happy while on the field (a requirment in my sport of choice, I need the points), I want mutual respect, I want a communication system they understand, I want them to know I am fair and consistant, I dont want to cause any handler conflict between the dog and me (handler conflict really screws stuff up) and a dog that looks at training as fun\play not "oh not this again". I look at training as play where dog and handler are having a good time, if that is not happening something is wrong. I want a dog the actively tries to learn not always looking to me for guidance, I want him to think and work out problems.

People who think using food as a training tool are really missing out. I use it for teaching an exercise, then when the time is right move to a motivational toy (in my case a tug). Do I always have to have food or toy with me for my dog to listen, absolutly not. They dont know when a toy or food is going to be presented, when the time is right intermittant rewards are used. I said this before, all you have is food, motivational toy, handler praise (very rare) or force to train a dog. You can always force a dog to do whatever you want, but is it the best way to do it?

The problem, I think, with a corrrection based training plan is, it teaches the dog to turn off pressure, for example, if you watch on of the videos that come with e-collars. It teaches a dog to turn of pressure (electric stimulation) by doing something, I think its called escape training. It creates a reactive dog, or in other words, reacts to your corrrection. It can turn a dog into a robot that only does certain things, when it comes time to learn a new exercise you have a problem, it doesn't want to do anything for fear of a correction. One thing I have noticed is these dogs dont look good out on the field. You can really pick out a dog that has been trained using force.

Look up "marker training" on a search engine and also search for a man nameed Michael Ellis and take a look at his free on-line videos, dont be discouraged by the sport mainly demo'ed,protection sports, the system can be used for anything. I am not connected with these people at all, I have gone to a couple M. Ellis seminars and really like his training methods. In a nutshell marker training pinpoints exact behaviors and opens up a communication system with your dog. Take a look it will be worth your time.

"Daily practice sessions at home are key" you bet I do 3 or 4, 2-3 minute sessions a day for teaching whatever thing we are working on that week.

Have fun with your dog.

Oh, and my sport of choice I REALLY need my dog to obey all the time...

[duckbuster]

You can really pick out a dog that has been trained using force.

Walleye, have you been to a retriever field trial? There are several in the summer months in Minnesota, driving distance from the Cities. There are dogs from all over the country that will be there. Professional trainers from all over as well. 99.9% of the dogs you will watch on a given weekend will have all been trained with a collar. I believe this is your definition of "trained using force". Watch carefully, because you will notice that 99.9% of those dogs are happy and LOVE to work.

Can you tell us, what is your sport of choice with your dogs?

[Ralph Wiggum]

In my opinion, proper use of a training collar is not training by force. One needs to know how to put a training collar on properly and how to use it, though.

Sorry to hijack this thread

[duckbuster]

Ding, ding, ding Ralph, 100 % in agreement with you!!!! To many people think that people who use the collar are cruel or it is a way to use "force" when training.

Collar use is there to stimulate a positive response to a refusal.

As Ralph mentions they need to be used properly. Just pushing a button because a dog doesn't do as he/she is told does not constitute proper usage.

[Walleye Widower]

Yes you are both right, you need to know what you are doing, I am not trying to argue at all, just bringing up a different way to train that is usually not accepted in hunting dog circles, yet.

Can I pick out a dog that has been compulsion trained? Yes, many people can if you look, watch the demeanor of the dog, you can tell. In some cases it is more obvious than others. If you have a really good dog it might not be very obvious, it takes what life has dished out to him. Is it fair to the dog, not really. It might look at the handler as a bully, not a leader. To me a leader is calm, fair and consistent.

My sport is Schutzhund, it is protection, tracking and obedience.

Have I been to a retriever trial? Watched one, they are very interesting, you guys do a lot of complicated things. I am no expert in hunting trials that is for sure. I was just providing info on other ways.

Do I use corrections? Yep, when the time is right and they have learned the exercise and refuse to do it they get a proper correction. With that said, and I have done my job teaching the dog what I want, I have to correct very, very rarely. My point is there is other ways to do train that allow for a high level of accuracy without having to always make a dog comply with force.

Another benefit is, once the groundwork is done it is very easy to train whatever else you want. For example, this weekend I built some agility things, a ladder (so they learn to use their back legs) and weave poles just for fun. Given it is not really complicated, it took 3 sessions with my older dog to learn what I wanted, never used a correction. I also started whistle recalls, I wanted the dog to come in really fast and end up in between my legs (facing forward). Took 3 sessions on Sat and 3 yesterday and we are doing very well given it is a two step exercise, no corrections used. How would you teach these things using compulsion?

Let’s say I want to have my dog doing a proper competition heel. The dog needs to be at my side shoulder in-line with my knee, and looking up at the side of my face, cant be turning wide or tripping me up and cant be lagging behind or lunging forward. How would you teach heel with compulsion or in your terms the training collar?

[EXTREME]

No argueing guys!! I have been working with my pup on the "come" command all week. Everytime I put that rope on her it is like Widower says...not this again. I am trying to do it without the kids around, because they distract her. She is not doing very good at it and really hates that rope. I feel as if I am doing something wrong. It really irritates me though when I let her out to go to the bathroom and she ignores my calls to come back. I don't want a pooch that ignores me. She is very loving in the house and seems quite intelligent. Here is what I am doing exactly. 1) put on collar with rope. 2) make her sit and walk a few feet away. 3) Say her name and "come". 4) pull on the rope if she doesn't come. 5) Make her sit when she gets to me. She might do it once or twice, but gets sick of it really quick. Also, once the rope is off, there is no listening. Guys, let me know if I am doing this right...also how long does it usually take?? Thanks

[Todd Caswell]

No argueing guys!! I have been working with my pup on the "come" command all week. Everytime I put that rope on her it is like Widower says...not this again. I am trying to do it without the kids around, because they distract her. She is not doing very good at it and really hates that rope. I feel as if I am doing something wrong. It really irritates me though when I let her out to go to the bathroom and she ignores my calls to come back. I don't want a pooch that ignores me. She is very loving in the house and seems quite intelligent. Here is what I am doing exactly. 1) put on collar with rope. 2) make her sit and walk a few feet away. 3) Say her name and "come". 4) pull on the rope if she doesn't come. 5) Make her sit when she gets to me. She might do it once or twice, but gets sick of it really quick. Also, once the rope is off, there is no listening. Guys, let me know if I am doing this right...also how long does it usually take?? Thanks

How old is your puppy??

[hanson]

EXTREME-

I think most of the guys will tell you to keep it fun, and keep the training short as they will lose interest.

Not sure if I mentioned it earlier but my Lab Morgan is my first pup period. Family never had a dog growing up, I knew absolutely squat about training them, pretty much trial by fire. Obedience class was very, very helpful for me, and I didn't bring him into class until he just turned 5 months. I didn't realize there was an earlier puppy class or I probably would have brought him in then.

You could search the forum here for my username in the last half year and see the problems I had. I've been through some kind of separation anxiety, took awhile to really potty train him, had a bad mouthing problem, and I still got some things I'm working out but I got through most of them with help from guys here and tips picked up from all sorts of places.

I get comments all the time on how well behaved he is and I just think, are you kidding me?? I mean really... are you kidding me?? He's know where near where I want him but he's making nice strides.

As for the "Come" command, we didn't really figure it out until about a month ago so 6 to 6-1/2 months old. Yesterday at class, all the dogs were left (Stay/Wait) in line along the wall off leash and we all went to the other side of the room (25-30 yards away) and each handler called their dog one at a time down the line. My Morgan did it... he stayed when the other dogs were getting called and came when I called. My confidence in what I'm doing has gone way up, and I think thats helped us both.

Guess what I'm saying is keep at it. Keep it fun. Keep it short. And even if you wait awhile (like me) to start training, they'll probably still get it.

Heck... I think my dog is the class clown of obedience training as he is SOOO wound up when we get there, they are like, Morgan's here... heard him come in as he's running in place on the concrete floor and panting wildly.

[EXTREME]

I probably am a little inpatient...she is only 9 weeks old. As I said this is my 3rd lab...I just forget how to deal with pups every time. I work with her every night on a few things. Mostly the come and sit command. She had the sit command down in 1 day so I believe she is pretty sharp. She also has potty training down to about 95% and the only accidents are liquid. What bothers me is how irritated she is when I put a rope on her collar. I just don't want to be mean to her at such a young age. You guys have been wonderful with your advice and could use some more. Thanks

[thedanimalkmk]

Extreme-

I know this has been said on here but you can work on this in the house without the rope, all you need is a hallway. Close all the doors and have the puppy sit next to you, throw her favorite toy out in front of you and allow her to go get it. They have no choice at this point but to bring it back to you. I used little pieces of hot dog as a reward with my pup for when he listened. Use the cord for outdoor training or put it away for awhile until she will come to you willingly in the hallway. A couple more things, praise the heck out of her when she follows your orders. I think this works better then any treat ever will. Also if she does it twice before losing interest stop there before she loses interest. Give her a break for an hour or so and then do it again. I think a bored pup is less likely to learn then a pup that is excited. Enjoy them when they are that age, mine was under 10 pounds when I got him 7 months ago he now is 80 lbs, man they grow up quick.

Dan

[Walleye Widower]

Weird, 99.9% of what pro trainers do didn’t work, sorry I couldn’t resist… I am really honestly not trying to argue or be difficult...just bring up different ways of doing things.

In my opinion

First off, your puppy is VERY young, think of it as a 1 year old human baby, it is a baby, you cant expect too much and YOU have to relax and not get frustrated, if you do they know and you will probably undo anything you just taught the pup. With a puppy, I put a long line on them and that is what they run around the yard with, the line will mean nothing to the dog, it is just the way life is. You can also use a cheap ½” 4’ leash for in the house, just cut the loop off so she doesn’t hook onto things. My 9 month old still runs around with the long line ¾ of the time and other times she has a 2’ leash on. I want having a leash on mean nothing to the dog and just ignore it. It makes life easier down the road while teaching other things. Also, if the pup doesnt like a collar, I give a treat everytime it goes on and off.

It appears you have 2 different things going on that I usually separate completely.

1. Peeing and #2 – with a puppy I always have a flexi lead on them. This is very important if you travel with your dog, they have to learn to relieve themselves on leash. I travel a lot with my dogs (hotels, camping etc) so they have to do their business on leash where ever we are. I also use a command of “go outside” when they go I praise with “good outside”. Also VERY important, #2 and pee time is for pee and #2 nothing else, there is no play when we “go outside”, they do their business and back inside, there is no screwing around, this is also nice especially when it is 30 below or raining. So use a leash, my 9 month old I still use a flexi lead ½ the time.

It probably hates the cord because all it means to the pup is something it is constantly getting yanked around on. How big is the cord? Pups need a very thin long line, I use a 20’ cotton ½” long line. Maybe it is too heavy for the pup to drag around, it is a possibility. So..

2. Come or recall –this is a very important thing for a puppy\dog to learn, it must come when you call it, it could be a life and death type of thing. I will not let a pup\dog off leash until the recall is established. What I do is – let the dog run around yard, basement where ever is safe and cant run away or be distracted to “other” fun things WITH the long line on and you not holding the end of the line, it is just dragging around. Get a pocket full of really tasty treats (like hot dog cut up in little pieces, I like something called Natural Balance meat rolls cut up). Tell him to come, as soon as he looks at you start backing up (it will draw the pup to you) and keep backing up till she gets to you and reward with treat(s) and a lot of praise in a very excited tone of voice (I probably sound like an [PoorWordUsage] when I praise, but it doesn’t matter, I want the result).

Another thing that works very well for initially teaching the recall is something called restrained recalls. It is done like this and will take 2 people.

1. Take puppy in a safe place, with long line on.

2. have pocket full of good treats

3. Your helper holds the puppy

4. You start running a short distance away from pup, coaxing it, like puppy come on, come, come on puppy. It will really want to follow you, probably start whining and barking. At first maybe 10 feet, slowly mixing up the distances.

5. Turn to pup and say COME

6. Helper lets go instantly of puppy at your que (COME)

7. It will come running to you fast

8. Give lots of treats and praise.

I still do this every once in a while with my 3 year old, just to maintain a fast recall.

If this doesn’t work let us know, there is a few other things that can be done.

Oh, and I forgot, sessions are real short and like others said FUN, if it isn't put the pup away and try again later..

Have fun they really do grow up way too fast....

[Farmboy1]

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned yet is to call "Come" and then lower yourself to the dogs level. Dogs are very good at reading body language. A stiff straight posture will show the dog anger, but bent at the waist to their level, and a excited tone of voice will often bring them to you.

Another quick thing is to ALWAYS reinfoforce a command. Do not give it if you cannot immediately reinforce the command. This includes your wife/kids/neighbors etc. It is simply being consistent, but if a command is given, it MUST be followed. Any variation to this is not acceptable.

Good Luck! It is young yet, but stay with training and do not get frustrated. They will slowly pick things up, and the next day may have forgot everything, but consistent training will see through any problems.

[fishnhooks]

From reading the posts, this sure brings back a not too far away memory of my youngest Lab. I was fortunite to be able to have the neighbor girl come over during the day to let her out to go to the bathroom a couple of times during the day. At night, I would be up a couple of times to let her out.

She hated the collar and rope/leash as well. I started out playing with her while she had the collar and leash on until she got more use to it, then slowly switched to a training routine. Whether it was right or not, I don't know, but it worked.

Have fun, like what was said before, "They grow up fast".

"hooks"

[EXTREME]

She is growing fast...that is for sure. She is learning better now that I have more patience. I appreciate all the ideas that you guys have given me. The best info is always first hand experience. She is definately a welcome addition to the family even though the wife doesn't like her shoes chewed up all that bad

[WalleyeDrifter]

What kind of fun drills do you use in the winter? I've got a 9 month old lab. The snow and cold make things more difficult.