Wild browns versus hatchery browns

[Scudly]

I have noticed lots of new posters recently, some of which I'm familiar with from other boards. Welcome! More posters = more knowledge.

My understanding WDNR and MDNR still stocks hatchery fingerlings. My understanding is hatchery trout have been manipulated over years. Now hatchery browns (through Man's selection) are agressive and grow fast. They are also more easily caught because of this. Through years of the selection process, I've also learned that these hatchery browns spawn early - October versus mid-November. Yet some of these hatchery browns must be mating with wild browns?

What is this doing to the gene pool of wild browns? Instead of dumping off hatchery brown fingerlings wouldn't it make more sense to transplant (disease free certified) wild browns from healthy river systems instead?

Side note, read in a book last night that hatchery trout were actually blamed for the spread of whirling disease.

Trout Unlimited members are a wealth of knowledge and I hope some provide excellent insight on this thread.

[march brown]

check the DNR's stocking database. The only streams getting brown trout stocking are marginal streams. Almost all streams that have wild browns in them are now managed as wild fisheries, and require no stocking.

The browns that are stocked nowadays are taken directly from wild brood stock, so the genetics maintain thier integrity.

[Scudly]

Thanks Josh. Was not aware. Len mentioned he saw the hatchery trucks out dumping in Mill Creek in his area recently. I think Mill is an exceptional fishery yet Len says it does get warm in the summer. Guess I'd have to check with Vetrano or Weeks in WI.

[Driftless]

different counties do differently.

depends on the fish manager.

Vetrano loves wild trout.

VanDyck is in to stocking

[Scudly]

Yes Kerr mentioned Van Dyck never met a hatchery trout he did not like. For some odd reason Van Dyck was stocking rainbows in the Big Green. We have Crooked Creek and a few others where rainbow fry (not catchables) are stocked because DNR believes there may be some success with holdover. Rainbows don't generally reproduce in the Midwest.

So Josh you are saying any browns stocked from hatcheries have come from wild trout these days, not a strain that has been in the hatchery system for decades?

So for WI Coon Creek would be where wild trout are collected and transfered to other streams. In MN does the DNR use trout run?

[march brown]

Not sure exactly where Mn gets it's brood stock from, but I don't think it's the Run.

I ain't even going to get into Kerr & his agenda here.

I believe WI uses Timber Coulee for many of their browns, at least in that area. But I could be wrong.

[s t fanatic]

i think it would be to costly for the dnr folks from mn and wi to travel to germany and a couple other european countries to get (WILD) brown trout fingerlings.

[blackdog1101]

So Josh you are saying any browns stocked from hatcheries have come from wild trout these days, not a strain that has been in the hatchery system for decades?

Correct. The DNR shocks certain streams and takes wild adult browns to the hatchery where they are stripped of eggs and milt. The eggs are fertilized, hatched, and raised to finglerling size, when they are released into streams needing supplemental stocking.

[Scudly]

Welcome back Warren. Hope you are feeling better. So my comment

Quote:

I've also learned that these hatchery browns spawn early - October versus mid-November.

is no longer valid since the hatcheries raise wild trout these days? Am I quoting an outdated method? My source is Roger.

[blackdog1101]

Roger has been out of the game for quite a long time. I'm sure his information is correct for the decades he worked as a fish manager, but a lot has changed too since then. Stocked brown trout these days are a lot closer to being wild. I think your best answer would come from someone at the Lanesboro hatchery. I know they reply to email, although it may take a few days to get a reply.

[march brown]

Not all trout spawn in any given stream at the same time,the window could be a few weeks, with the peak in the middle, or towards the end. And not all streams spawn at the same time either. Location and access to redds, air and water temps, and the consistency of the latter, have a great deal to do with it. Vermillion trout are done, but southeast, and for sure northeast, may still be going. If there's a sudden warm spell, that could set things off til temps get back to normal. I believe water temp needs to be under 50 degrees for spawning to happen, successfully anyways. Basically it ain't a one size fits all deal.

[Scudly]

So if this year we have had a cold fall and the trout are spawning early. There will be other years like this. Maybe it would not be such a good idea to extend the season through October as is being proposed in MN and WI.

With an early spawn will this have a negative, neutral, or positive impact on reproduction this year? Or can I assume spring flooding biggest factor of mortality rates - slow gentle thaw versus a real gusher

[deets22]

if you go to the usgs site they put down info on where the strain of fish came from that were stocked its pretty neat

[march brown]

the extended seasons could be ok, as long as measures are taken to protect, and educate. Most conservation minded anglers wouldn't target a redd, too easy, just not very sporting. But I am willing to bet not every angler can even identify what a redd is, and when the fish are working them, it would be easy to just assume fish are working the gravel, waiting for lunch. I think it should also be no kill. I don't think we need regs that make it artificials only, although that would be nice ( ya know how I feel about bait fishing and c&r, i don't think it works). I don't think the barbless reg is all that important anylonger either, get rid of it.

I don't know that an early spawn is a bad thing. If it happens too early, you risk anglers walking on redds. I do think spring run-off is the biggest threat though.

[Scudly]

What is a Heritage brook trout that I have been heading about? Are the wild brookies we have in many Driftless Area streams Heritage or some other strain?

[blackdog1101]

The vast, vast majority of brookies in the Driftless are from Eastern brookie stock, when brookies were brought from New England and stocked in streams here after our native brookies were thought to be extirpated.

In the past couple of years there *may* have been found some true genetically pure Driftless brookies. The DNR is being rather tight lipped about where they may have been found. Rumor has it that they were found in Iowa.

A few years ago there were reports of genetically pure Driftless brookies in a MN stream, I can't recall which one. Mel Haugstad later reported that he had stocked brookies in this stream in the 1970's when he was the Lanesboro regional manager. He still had the stocking reports in his personal records.

So if it is true that genetically pure "Heritage" brookies have been located, I think it would be very cool if they could be transplanted over time into their native streams.

[Scudly]

Warren do thy look different, grow different, or act different? So this fish was native and was around with native American Indians? This would have been the strain that lived in the Vermillion at one point? They are going in a trib of Rudh Creek soon, correct? Very interesting stuff. Thanks for your post Warren.

[Dave Anderson]

They are different genetically (DNA), and they are different in growth rates. The original brookies grew much larger than their Eastern counterparts.

[blackdog1101]

As Dave says, the current thought is that the native trout lived longer and grew larger than the Eastern brook trout, which only has a life span of 3 or 4 years.

As an aside, I read once where our native brook trout are most genetically similar to the brook trout that live in the Appalachian mountains in NC and GA. The theory is that when the ice sheets were melting the water was cold enough to allow the Appalachian brookies to migrate down to the Ohio River and up the Mississippi to our watersheds.

[Scudly]

I see New York and other east coast states are focusing on heritage brook trout. One idea was to introduce genetic diversity which will ensure the success of the brook trout as a whole. Maybe heritage brook trout already identified and introduced on the east cost would be the MN DNR's source?

My general thought on size has less to do with genetics and more to do with the environment. Canadian streams offer the largest brook trout. The streams are large and fertile, a good combination for growing large fish. Best example being the Hudson Bay drainage which support brookies in the 8lb + range. Not to mention char in the 30 lb range and salmon up to 40 lbs.

Therefore assume the larger and the colder and pristine the stream, the greater chance for a larger brookie.

[blackdog1101]

My general thought on size has less to do with genetics and more to do with the environment. Canadian streams offer the largest brook trout. The streams are large and fertile, a good combination for growing large fish. Best example being the Hudson Bay drainage which support brookies in the 8lb + range. Not to mention char in the 30 lb range and salmon up to 40 lbs.

It's a combination of water and genetics. The Candian waters are rather infertile. They are freestone streams like the MN north shore, rather than spring streams like the Driftless. Not a great deal of biomass, but the fish live a long time, which gives them time to grow. The world record fish comes from the Nippigon River, which is a freestone stream. As you say though, the water is clean and cold, which is the other half of the equation.

[Scudly]

Good point Warren. Yet they must be eating something? What makes one freestone more successful than another? Why can't we all catch big ones like Terminal Tackle?

It is a good point to make though. Look forward to learning more about heritage brookies. Hemmingway and Coolridge sounds like two diamonds in the rock. Neat to learn they genetically match. Who has fished these and who has photos?

[blackdog1101]

Now I'm guessing, because I really don't know. But my guess is that once they get above "X" size, they quit eating bugs and move up to oily baitfish like smelt, alewives, and herring. Kind of like steelhead, once they smolt out of the rivers they quit eating bugs and move up to oily baitfish. And those brookies are genetically predisposed to growing large and have longer lifespans.

[fsh4trout]

Good point Warren. Yet they must be eating something? What makes one freestone more successful than another? Why can't we all catch big ones like Terminal Tackle?

Because big trout are rare, let alone big Brook Trout. There probably are some above average brookies lurking in the driftless. It's just that noone has been lucky enough to hook one.