WOUNDED BIRD

[BRYSTER]

My 1yr. 10 month old lab will not retrieve a wounded duck. He will go out put it in his mouth then release and come back into shore. Does anyone have a solution to this?

[Ole #1]

The dog needs to learn the command hold. Does he bring the dummy right to your hand when you play fetch? I would get the book or video GAME DOG by Richard Wolters. You should be able to correct this problem.

[Ray Esboldt]

I guarantee the solution is not as simple as the command "hold". I currently have the same issue. My dog would not dream of dropping a dummy and walking away knowing the possible ramifications of such actions. However, she is willing to risk a scolding with a live duck. I believe it is an exposure issue. LABS4ME started me on a solution to this, maybe he could speak more about it here.

[Ole #1]

I was just giving some advice. It could be as simple as teaching the dog to hold, it might not. I'm not an expert, but I've trained a few dogs and have a little experience hunting with them. Unless you know this dog, you can't guarantee the problem isn't a simple command.

[Ray Esboldt]

OK, I don't guarantee it.

[LABS4ME]

O.K. Ray, I'll give it a go...

I feel a lot of our field dogs are trained to much with dummies and not enough with birds (both live and dead). Reduce the amout of retrieving with dummies and use frozen birds. I even went so far as breasting out ducks and duck taping their wings back around their breasts and using these. Keep them frozen and use them for a week or two and move onto a new batch.

As far as holding a cripple, train with live pigeons or better yet live ducks. Train him to hold them while at heel then begin to work him on watching a "cripple" (wing clipped bird, or better yet tape the wings down so they can't flap them when 1st introducing them to your dog) walk away while at heel. He should really be ready to bust out and grab that bird, release him to make the retrieve. Keep him on a check cord and make sure he comes in quick with the bird. If he drops it, keep tension on the check cord and get him fired up to get back after it while keeping tension on the cord. Release him when he wants to get it again. Hopefully he'll begin to equate this with a bird getting away if he doesn't finish the job. Then start working with him to track a live wing clipped duck in short cover. He will eventually do all with great style once he gets a little more confidence with live birds. Sometimes they can be a little intimidating for some dogs. If your dog hasn't been force fetched or "conditioned retrieved" you may want to plan on having this done. Part of the force includes working with live birds.

We as owners sometimes expect our dogs to be able to handle every situation thrown at them, but like people, each dog is a little different. Some will adapt quicker and be willing to take risks with a new situation, some will shy away from it and do what they feel more comfortable doing. Expose them to as many different encounters in training as possible. Some examples... Use canoes and decoys in the yard to simulate duck hunting, instead of just having your dog sit at heal on the driveway while throwing dummies, use a 2x2 to swing on a dummy or bird your hidden buddy threw for you to simulate a gun, this way they learn to key off the barrel to look for marks as they fall... Use birds in place of dummies whenever possible, even if it means going to the game farm to do it, etc. etc.

Good Luck!

Ken

[duckbuster]

I believe it has everything to do with the hold command. The dog has not been properly taught the force fetch. The force fetch is the basis of most everything in training you will do.

When teaching the force fetch we start with a wooden dowel or small puppy dummy. Once we have established fetch and hold with that we move to the full size dummy. At the completion of the full size dummy we then move to birds. You would be surprised at the number of dogs that will stall some what at this stage.

When the force fetch is completed and has been properly done your dog should be looking to pick up anything on the ground when you bark out the words FETCH!!

Generally speaking there is a lot of pressure put on a dog when doing the force fetch. Many of us are not mentally strong enough to do this. There is a feeling like you are being very mean to your dog because of the yelping and squealing and crying that is going on. DO NOT be afraid to have a professional trainer do this step for you. I would venture to guess that even Labs4me has employed a pro once or twice to have this done to one or two of his own dogs.

I know I will never do it on my own again!!!

GOOD LUCK!!!

[LABS4ME]

I had one pro work on one dog that there was no way I could get through the force, the more I worked on it the more ground I lost ... he never even fully got her through it, though she ended up being a fine working gun dog and she never gave me a no go, every once in a while she'll drop a dummy before delivering it, but never a bird. Every other dog I've owned, I've done my own force as I was lucky enough to have plenty of guidance from many young and upcoming pros in the 80's... D.B. is right, it is generally the least palatable portion of any training you are likely to do with your pooch, but in almost every case, the wisest, best investment of training time or dollars you will do or have done. Done correctly you will have a dog that will not give you any problems when it comes to retrieving. As I've stated in the past, most dogs will flourish in all points of training if they have been properly forced. It is the foundation for a lot of finish work.

I guess I was assuming this particular dog has not been forced and was trying to get him a band-aid to get through the season.

Good Luck!

Ken

[duckbuster]

Labs I'm sorry I meant for my reply to be to Ray. Sometimes I think you just need to click on the last post to reply. When in fact you can click on anyones name and reply to that post.

SORRY.

[LABS4ME]

D.B. no apology nessacary! There was NO offense taken... I was simply stating why I didn't go into great detail about the force, not implying I was offended. As I stated before sometimes my thoughts don't come out real well on my keyboard!

On a side note you going ice fishing this year? Get in touch with me if you are...

Good Luck!

Ken

[Ray Esboldt]

OK, duckbuster. Point well taken. I am not a dog trainer.

So, let me lay out my scenario. First, let me state that my current 14 month old lab will be the last dog (and only) that I attempt to do all the work. Any failure she has right now is directly proportional to something that I failed at along the way. I will admit to that. I "forced" my dog based on advice I received from a former trainer and reading. We didn't skip any steps based on those recommedations, and it made a world of difference in everything we did. So, here's where I'm at now, and bear with me, this might be a little long. I could take a live pigeon or a dead bird, and put it anywhere and the dog will bring it back. Now, this is an improvement over a month ago, because she would only bring back live pigeons. Dead ones were an issue, unless they were frozen. She has been OK with live pigeons for several months. The problem seems to be things that were recently shot. She's anxious enough to rush to them upon being sent, but simply stands there or swims in place, giving me the "Good shot, it's dead" look. However, her posture immediately changes to "I know I'm not doing what I am supposed to be doing." What in the world do I do? I would really like to work through this in the field, but get the feeling that this may not be possible. Should I accept it, find a trainer and have them work her through it? Or, should I be patient, and refuse to allow her to fail?

Everytime we have encountered a training issue, I've been able to work her through it. However, those issues have been encountered in places other than the field. She knows "fetch" and the undesirable consequences associated with refusal. I'll take advice from anyone. Lord knows I've begged enough from Labs4me that I should cut him a check.

[duckbuster]

Hi Ray: Have you forced her with a bird? Pigeon, duck or pheasant? In your earlier post you just mentioned that she wouldn't dare for fear of the ramifications not pick up a dummy. If so then I would think about employing the pro trainer and have him/her help you thru this.

GOOD LUCK!!!

[Ray Esboldt]

Yes, I have reemployed force with a pigeon, frozen duck, thawed duck, recently dead pheasant, and frozen pheasant. She will now pick those up with very little question. That's a fairly recent development with the exception of the pigeon. She's done that for several months. We're down to the just shot it critters. That in itself is a major improvement. So, I'm willing to be somewhat patient. And, fortunately, my hunting partners are equally as patient. They've helped a lot with the way we've hunted that last few weeks. They realize we're incubating a dog that has some issues, and taking time out to educate the animal is not an inconvenience.

I am not against professional help, but I started this mess, so I want to fix it. I know that's rockheaded, but those who know me understand.

[LABS4ME]

Ray, let me take one more stab at it... there is nothing wrong with going back to the force while in the field! It will always be a tool at your disposal for the rest of her life. If she ever gives you a no go or refuses to pick up a bird, you can always rely on it. Once through this little bump in the road though I doubt if it will be nessacary.

Sounds to me like shooting some planted birds is well in order. You can start at heel with birds that have their wings duct taped if it is live larger game birds that has her stumped. If she won't fetch them with taped wings, work on fetch and hold at your side, if she will, move on to the next step. If it is actually freshly killed game birds, plant some live ones, have her flush them or have a buddy throw up a mallard in some short cover while another buddy shoots it while you and your dog mark it, and send her on the retrieve, if she balks, call her back to heel and immediatley employ your method of force (ear pinch?) to the bird. Have her carry it back to where you originally started and deliver. Praise her and move onto the next bird, repeat. She'll get it I'm positive. Word of saftey here, bring a buddy with to do the shooting so you can concentrate on working with her. I would concentrate on hen pheasants or chukars and some pen raised mallards for this exercise. Try to time it the day or two before a planned hunting trip so your training will carry over to that day hopefully. She's right there, you just need her to cross that line. Hang in there.

Good Luck!

Ken

exposure + exposure + exposure = confidence

[Ray Esboldt]

Thanks, duckbuster and Labs4me. We in fact did take time out of our hunt on Sunday and did throw a bird from the other boat that was out of site, someone else shot, and she would fetch the bird. I saw that as a sign of improvement.

I like the taped up hen pheasant idea. We will try that this weekend.

[duckbuster]

Ray: Here is another thing you could try with a live pigeon. Take the wings and cross them so that they kinda hook one another and the bird can not fly but obviously is still alive. Or try this, if you can get a live duck from someone clip/cut the wing feathers in half or better and throw it out in front of her or hide it in front of her. Let her fine the live bird and see what she does with it. At the 1st sign of no interest in picking it up grap her ear and re-inforce the fetch. When I say 1st sign I mean she better be grabbing it immediately when she finds it and bringing to you. If she stalls at all, sniffing or nosing the bird grab that ear.

GOOD LUCK!!

[Ray Esboldt]

After the first round of clipped wing pigeons and the proper correction, pigeons were never an issue. In fact, I thought a couple times she was going to have a seizure sitting at heel and wathcing them walk away. I really think that it might be a size issue right now. As Labs suggested, it may be an exposure issue. We're going to try the live pheasant deal tomorrow, wings taped and legs shackled with twine. We will hunt Saturday and Sunday. I'll let you know if I see improvement by the end of the weekend.

She does so many things beyond my expectations that I know this is just another bump in the training road. My God, a female lab can be just as complex as other females I have experience with.

I still would like to use a live duck. Anyone have a line on pen raised ducks?

[Bigfife]

Lots of very good advice from these posts. I am new to training so I really like all of this info. My dog will retrieve dummies, wings, balls, and all sorts of things all day. I took her out with live pheasants and she was overwhelmed with the flapping of the wings. The trainer has had her for a week and a half and he said she is doing a lot better. He started with frozen pigeons. The next step was live birds with the wings taped down. Then he made her hold one while it flapped. Now she is retrieving live pigeons with a clipped wing. This week I am going to try some live hen pheasants with her. Hope there is something useful in my rambling.

I watched two of my friends start the force fetch and then stopped working on it. My other friend went through the whole thing and his dog is ten times the other dogs. I was worried about force fetching my timid lab, but she is taking to it great. I think I am hooked on this training stuff. Now I just have to figure out how to do it in the boat.