Bird and Gun Intro

[metrojoe]

I dropped the pup off this morning for her bird and gun intro. I'm a little nervous about her being gone for two weeks but I'm also excited to see the out come.

Thank God we're getting a little break in this heat this week. Everytime I got my dogs out over the last few weeks they spent most of the time playing in the water.

If everthing goes well, which I'm sure it will, she'll be going back for a month in September.

[Benny]

Yep,we get seperation angsiety as well.

The pup will be so birdy when you get it back that the first few hours it will be buzzing like some one put a 12 volt in the pup.

Mandy was so intent on finding the bird that she chased a cripled pigeon under the car and got stuck tring the go after it.

Glad to see you got the pup, now the fun starts all over again.

How is Banjo taking to the new pup?Any jelousy yet?

We will have to get together for a few hunts this fall, I just went past Glenderado this Saturday.No signs out yet ,and lots of crops up so it will be a few more weeks before they even start hunting there.

Benny

[setterguy]

I'm sure everything will be just fine, you put her in very capable caring hands. As I'm sure you know Mike is a very smart dog man who always has the dogs best interest as his focus. Let us know how the training goes and what Mike has to say about her....I'm anxious to hear.

[brittman]

You are paying someone to do this?

[metrojoe]

Benny,

I think Banjo will miss her but I also think he'll enjoy the break. He's very patient with her but she can get on his nerves.

Justin,

I'm looking forward to running her in the spring trials. If you think about it, could you send me that contact info again. I should get the ball rolling on that before it's to late.

brittman,

I'm not sure what your point is, but as much as training my own dog appeals to me, I don't think it would be fair to my dog. I lack the knowledge, experience, equipment, time and location to properly train a dog. Besides, there are people that do this for a living.

[TMan]

I agree MetroJoe, I just sent my 7 month lab to West Country Kennels for B & G intro. I read many a training type book after reading here what some said was good info but I prefer not to mess up the introduction to birds and gun. Seems like if I get her on the right track through my own work under Wolter training and quality association between the gun and birds, that her instincts will be enough to drive her to be a good hunter. And that's all I'm looking for.

TMan

[brittman]

Training is part of the fun of owning a bird dog. Training the pup from start to finish. I grew up with a gun in my hands, but my dad never owned a bird dog. Can't use that..

There are places to train, clubs to support, etc....

side note:

Whoa - scouting shooting preserves. Sorry but shooting preserves really is not hunting. I do patronize a couple each year and believe they are valuable for bring along young bird dogs, but no matter how good the preserve is .... it is not real hunting.

I moved to MN awhile back - I shoot plenty of pheasants, grouse, and an occassional turkey less than 75 miles from my house. To be honest I rarely could say that growing up in eastern ND. Scouting works in the metro too...

[BigDaddy]

brittman-

I'm not sure what your post is about. It's all over the place. I think that you're mostly trolling.

"To each his own." There is nothing to be ashamed of in using a professional trainer.

[Benny]

brittman, please keep the negative comments out of this forum, if you have something positive to add by all means lets hear it.

But to knock some one who is a big enough person to know thier limits or time constraints and hire a pro, well that isn't very positive.

Just keep it positive or egnor the thread if your not happy with it.

Thanks for your positive input, Benny

[KJSnider]

Yep, I'm paying someone to train my dog also. This past Saturday, the big brown one's been at Fischer's Kennels for 7 weeks. With me being gone sometimes 4 days a week, I wouldn't have it any other way. This is hopefully an investment for at least the next 10 years.

I cannot wait to see him in the field this fall, and also to see him taking a walk with the wife, and having the Misses telling me that she now doesn't have to fight with him the whole way. Cause if she's happy, we're all happy!!!

KJ

[Benny]

You will like Pete, I know two dogs he trained and both are exelent bird dogs.

I had Mandy trained at Elk River Kennels for the same reasons, I just didn't have the time to get her on birds as much as they did, nor did I know how to get her to retrieve any thing that I sent her after.

She came back ready to hunt, it cost just over $1600 and twoo months but she held her own with the guides dog at Gold Medows last fall.

Benny

[brittman]

Trolling - No - I guess I am just a little disheartened reading about guys that hire professional dog trainers and then focus on preserves. Then again I guess it reduces the overall pressure on the wild lands, birds, and resources.

If I hurt your feelings - sorry - just trying to prod you into thinking - I can train this dog myself!!!

Rambling - I suppose. Point was I have trained dogs that have become top bird dogs. I did this through trial and error, patience, and persistance. My dad did not train dogs, friends did not train dogs - so training my own dog was not a "given". 2nd Point was wild bird hunting is available close to the metro for those that scout and look.

Gold Meadows is a first class facility and Joe will work with dog owners to "set-up" for your dog's experience level.

I have never seen their guides or dogs work - probably never will.

[gundoglily]

I agree with many of the posters who have sent their dog to a pro trainer, with time retraints, family commitments and such, by all means send the dog to someone who does this for a living, and has a proven track record. A dog is a 10 -12 year commitment and having one that is a pleasure to hunt behind and has good manners goes for a much more pleasant partnership.

As a shooting preserve owner, I also took offense at Britmans posting that preserves weren't "real hunting". We work year round to make sure that a variety of cover is available, plant cover crops in the spring to compliment the grassy areas. We raise our birds in a manner that they maintain their wildness and will perform on the field like those in the wild. Yes, we can "set up" areas for those with young dogs and want them to be successful, but for the most part, except for knowing that birds have been released on the field, you and your dogs will have to work at it to be successful. Where would you rather have the next generation of hunters get excited about hunting, walking for miles and not getting up any or maybe 1 bird, or take them to a preserve, where they will get to see and bag many birds. Everyone should get the opportunity to wild bird hunt, but for some, lives get too busy and they also feel safer at a preserve, knowing they aren't on a management area with lots of other hunters. Maybe we are just a product of "progress". To each his own.

My 2 cents

[SRandall]

Well here are my two cents worth. I agree with both sides as I have trained my own dog and hunted on preserves with professionally trained dogs. I have a great time hunting the preserves around the Itasca county area for pheasants and chukkars. As for brittman, I understand your point of doing it on your own, it feels great to watch all that hard work payoff. My little Toller now has his club Working Certificate and a Canine Good Citizen award from the AKC towards his title, so we are on our way.

Too metrojoe, there is nothing wrong with sending your dog to a trainer. Someday I may have to send my dog also if I run into trouble of some sort. But so far we are doing great. Time is always an issue, but I trudge out to the feild just about every evening in hopes of a great hunting partner.

We will just have to see come fall.

[setterguy]

First off I would like to comend everyone here for always keeping our discussions civil, and not rushing to judement. I guess dog guys just do it better.. . I always like to equate owning a top flite bird dog (which metrojoes will be someday) to owning a luxury sports car. If I had never owned a luxury sports car, I can gaurantee that I wouldn't be popping the hood open and tinkering around on the engine without knowing if I was doing more harm than good, same goes for bird dogs. Of course there are always ways to fix your own car, but time, knowledge and access to the right tools aren't always available, same with bird dogs. If you have the knowledge and knowhow to replace the clutch on a corvette, more power to you. I would just think twice about knocking someone who knows thier own limits and takes it to a professional to have the job done right the first time....same with bird dogs.

[Benny]

Brittman, no feelings were hurt that won't heel quick.

As for training my dog, I took her as far as my suburban local would allow me to go.

There isn't any water close by accept for the local dam and park where you have to keep the pooch on a leash or face the park ranger.

I couldn't store birds and keep them alive, there isn't too many places to even buy birds here.

The time it took to get her force fetched was longer than most labs as she is a "soft" dog.

She will not work if you are too hard on her, she will just curl up and take what ever pain you give her.

The trainer said he had to take his time to teach her what to do, only using very minamal force to make her do any thing.

I was working with her every day for 30 minutes or more per day, but I couldn't get her to find the second dummy that was hiding in the shrubs.She didn't understand what that black thing was for at the end of her snout.

Now she is doing great by my standards, sure I would love to have her be as good as those dogs on ESPN but that won't happen with her.

I have hunted and still do hunt the wild birds, but I spend more money and time doing so than a one day trip to a good preserve.

I never did have any birds set up for her, the guide said we wouldn't need to.

I did ask if I could bring her , the guide told me he would be glade to help and put away his youngster and brought out a seasoned guide dog to help show Mandy the ins and outs.

The group I hunt the preserve with has about 75 birds released at a time, the only easy thing about it is the walking part as two of the guys have bad knee's so we ask for easy walking fields for them.

The bird handlers don't make it easy for us either, we have to spend the whole 5 or so hours looking for them all.

I would welcome a chance to hunt some wild birds with you this year, I am pretty booked up till mid November but might find a weekend to get out.

Benny

[jblabsnduck]

I can't and wont knock you guys for taking your dogs to a pro trainer since my father in-law is one.

I will say that for ME there is a HUGE satisfaction that I trained my dogs myself.

When I see my dogs make a good retrieve or a nice point(in the case of my chocolate lab) there is just something there that says Dang I trained him good.

I don't go as far as hand signals and all that but I don't need to. Not to sound all smart butt or say I am the best shot in the world but I have not had a bird sail on me in a VERY long time. Most my shots are withing 15-20 yards. The good retrieves come in when I have a swimmer and my dogs are all over them. My dogs take very good lines on release.

I am not saying my dogs are the best in the world either, I am just saying maybe I got lucky with my two.

To sum up my rambling, I like the fact that no one else told me how to train my dogs or did the work for me. That is just my own feeling and like I said I hold nothing against you guys that take your dogs to trainers. I understand that not everyone has the time or place to train.

But make sure you ALWAYS inforce what your dog has learned from the trainer, ALWAYS.

[brittman]

Put and take preserves are not real hunting - that is just my opinion.

Top grade habitat, good flight birds, etc... do make the simulation as real as possible.

I enjoy preserves and understand what they offer to those "too busy" in the metro.

I will tell you IMHO driving home with a pair of roosters in the truck harvested from the "wild" always feels better than "getting all the birds I released" from a preserve.

I would guess that > 95% of the time I have hunted a preserve my dogs have found significantly more pheasants than I have released. So for a dog owner getting his dog ready - or for mid winter treat - a preserve can not be beat.

As I raise three children into hunting - I question the pluses of a preserve (success, opportunity) vs the negatives (instant gratification, too "easy). It will not be an easy one to balance - another topic I guess.....

[brittman]

SetterGuy -

We obviously share the same common goal - but take widely different pathways to get there.

My children do not go to day care - my pup will not either. I do not sent my children off to more experienced parents

My Britts are as good as they get when it comes to finding wild birds.

I have listened to and talked with several "big name" trainers and realize they are very good at what they do.

But I have also realized that to earn a good living they must train many a dog. Thus the major escalation on e-collar use. That is a whole other topic too.....

[setterguy]

Brittman, I have a question for you....Lets say one of your children showed a wonderful gift for playing the violin. Would you read about the violin, then buy a violin, try to learn to play it yourself and then try and pass that knowledge on to your child, or would you realize that your child had a gift and that your childs development in the violin may be stunted or delayed by your lack of knowledge and decide to have a professional teach him/her the things that you simply couldn't? Would it be less rewarding to see your child up on stage playing in front of an audience knowing that you didn't personally teach them the symphony? Or, would you take pride in the fact that your child has a wonderful talent, one outside of your realm of expertise, and accept the fact that someone could just do a better job of teaching and fine tuning the natural ability that was already there?

[fishnhooks]

Setterguy,

Wow, That kind-of gave me shivers. What a great way to look at it.

"hooks"

[BigDaddy]

Great post setterguy!

[brittman]

Well not quite the right analogy SetteryGuy.

My daughter does have the gift of playing the violin and she does have an excellent teacher, but she is never handed off to the teacher. The teacher demands that a parent (in this case my wife) attend every single practice - for the entire time. It is my wife the oversees daily practices, finger placement, etc... The teacher sees my daughter one per week.

It is my wife that works with my daughter day in and day out. It is my wife that struggles through the "temper" issues of not succeeding "right away" - since my daughter is on perfect behavior with the teacher during the class.

I joke that my wife might as well be taking lessons too!

So if your analogy was to correlate to dog training - these guys would visit the dog trainer once a week or so for expert tips and pointers - but the day in - day out training, crying, and struggles would be done by the OWNER.

Note also that I said I listen to trainers, I read their books - and then incorporate SOME into my own training.

On a personal none of my children would live with another (violin, gymnastics, hockey, etc...) to move their talent to another level. Balance and stability are the key aspects of life - only family can offer this.

[setterguy]

Alrighty then.....

[brittman]

Are you watching me Do I need to be concerned

Just kidding. Going fishing have a good day.