grouse dog vs pheasant dog

[woodview]

I recently did some reading on grouse vs pheasant dogs and am wondering about peoples opinions on working (what I intend to be more of) a grouse dog on pheasants. The couple articles I've read state flat out not to hunt a grouse dog on pheasants until they've first "mastered" grouse... if ever.

I've read that a good grouse dog can later be worked on pheasants but a pheasant dog will really have trouble becoming a good grouse dog.

Some of the rationalle behind it being...

Pheasants often run and then fly only when necessary, whereas a grouse will either flush immediately or run behind some cover then fly. So to not flush a bird the dog needs to lock right away rather than like a pheasant dog who gets closer until it really gets a snootfull of scent. Pheasants emit more odor and dogs will learn they can and probably should get more than just that initial whiff. That the better pheasant dogs often learn to circle and pin a pheasant that starts to run and a grouse won't have any of that. The articles were supposed to definatelly be about pointers but some of the behaviors described sounded more like flushing dogs than pointers to me. Thought that a pointer should lock up on first scent regardless of quarry.

I'm already trying to build my will-power to resist taking a pop at any bird that gets up. Meaning no shooting at birds that get bumped or wild flushes, only those properly pointed. May have to spend the dog's first fall afield carrying a sling-shot rather than a shotgun just to avoid the temptation!

Any opinions or observations?

[gspman]

The stuff you wrote/quoted is right on in my opinion.

If you work a hardcore grouse dog on pheasants you'll probably have more unproductive points than a pheasant dog just because the pheasant really needs to be pinned by the dog. A pheasant will run out from a point unless it really feels it's in imminent danger by running. A dog needs to put some pressure on a pheasant to get it to sit. A grouse dog that's been trained to point at the first hint of scent won't do that.

My old dog Sammy cut her teeth on pheasants and when grouse hunting she just put way to much pressure on the birds. Grouse just don't seem to put up with any kind of monkey business and most of the time they'd flush on her. Eventually she figured it out and would point at first scent but she was not always consistent with it. I'm expecting my youngster Dixie to be better at crossing over between the two species. She's a smarter dog than Sammie ever was.

If you primarily hunt grouse then I would tend to agree with starting the dog on grouse if you want a consistent grouse dog. If your main quarry is pheasant then start'em on pheasants.

If you have a young dog going into it's first season this fall I'd strongly recommend not shooting anything that it does not point solidly.

It sure would be nice to have a good pheasant and grouse population in MN this fall to season the young dogs but it doesn't seem like that's going to happen. I might have to hitch up the wagon and head to the Dakota's this year.

Setterguy will probably have some good insight for you when he chimes in.

gspman

[charliepete2]

It's much harder to get a proficient grouse dog than it is one that hunts pheasants. A grouse dog has to have much a much better nose and manners. If I was going to spend most of my time hunting grouse I wouldn't put my dog on a pheasant until it was reliable on grouse. I hunt both birds about equally and my dogs are great on pheasant, but it takes a while for them to figure out grouse. My Oldest dog had 4 seasons under his belt before he was reliably pointing grouse from adequate distances.

For what it's worth real good grouse dogs aren't the greatest on pheasants either. They don't have that urge to track and after you've walked in on the 50th unproductive point it gets a little tedious.

[brittman]

Ruffed Grouse DO RUN!

As much as a rooster pheasant, probably not - but there are plenty of ruffs that will run in front of dog and hunter. I believe this is especially true where birds are pressured.

Fall is made for hunting and I hunt with my dogs. I expect my Brittanys to point and hold prairie and woodland birds - ducks over water - etc...

Dogs (all ages) will make mistakes (just like the owner will), but most will learn rather quickly. Be patient.

When hunting with a young dog I have one BIG Statement of advise:

Avoid hunting in large groups of people - this tends to put more "pressure" on the owner and the birds - not just the dog.

[woodview]

Have definately had a number of them run on me... some days seems hard to get them to flush.

Have a good friend that has a llewellyn about the same age and we've already decided to hunt them seperate till they're both older and proven. Don't like the idea of not being able to hunt with him as much the next few seasons , but that's the price. Kind of afraid that my dog might set his back - picked mine up older and not certain on it's experience - was told by the guy that she'd had a few weekends last year and had flushed wild birds - assuming he was talking about pheasants.

Odd that 2 months ago hearing 4 seasons would have made me choke and now I read that and just think.... "if that's what it takes then she'll get all the time she needs" - hope she's as forgiving

Gonna get into the woods as much as possible before our "boys grouse weekend" - just me and the dog. Think that 1 or 2 others along on the grouse weekend would be detrimental or should I plan on just me and the dog for the first season?

wormfood - it you read this one... Not sure if you're planning on your dog being just a duck dog or are you gonna hunt yours this year? Having that nose along for finding down birds would be great

[brittman]

Maybe you can stay together, but hunt separate trails.

Hunting with one other person is fine, but three hunters over one new dog may be pushing it. Especially if it is a young pointing dog.

Groups of hunters:

+) can be louder which will distract the dog and may spook birds ahead of the dog.

+) owner may get distracted and not pay enough attention to the pup.

+) owner can follow rules (ie mentioned above by others), but getting others to follow (don't shoot unless dog is staunch) may prove difficult.

If you hunt with a young dog in bigger groups - remember not to punish the dog ....

[setterguy]

There are many dogs that hunt both grouse and pheasants, but I have yet to see many that do it well. In my opinion there is a big difference between a grouse dog, and a dog that hunts grouse. I mean I play golf, but I am certianly not a golfer. A respected trainer from Michigan wrote this a few years ago, he has trained grouse dogs for over 20 years...I find it very interesting.

THE GROUSE DOG: Ten percent of the "cover dogs" fall into this class. This dog can be separated from the woodcock dog and the grouse/woodcock dog, by the manner in which he handles birds and works the cover. The TRUE grouse dog DOES NOT specifically point the grouse, BUT THE GENERAL AREA THE GROUSE IS IN; usually from such a distance that the that the grouse is totally unaware of the dog. Such a dog is both fast and light on his feet, has a keen pointing instinct, and ALSO has a tremendous scenting ability. He picks grouse scent STRICTLY from the air. The grouse dog can easily scale a large piece of cover in one or two passes and then go on to the next AREA. "Bird-Sense"? This dog can smell a "grouse patch" (dogwood runs, etc.), from incredible distances and for that reason knows where to begin looking and doesn't bother with the sterile areas. Looking specifically for grouse... but of course will point whatever woodcock he finds enroute. This dog will have a higher ratio of unproductive points, BUT his "bump ratio" will be nil. This dog will also work at a wider range. When grouse are found, the dog will wait for the gun to arrive and then show a more specific location of the bird, if so instructed. The grouse dog will not work a moving bird until instructed. The high headed, wind scenter, is usually a master of the "mobile point". You will rarely see him put his nose to the ground. Very few hunters have ever seen a GROUSE DOG in action. They do exist, however rare they may be.

For me, I don't hunt my grouse dog on pheasants, a very quick way to learn bad habits. Plus, grouse taste so much better.

[charliepete2]

Setterguy...some grouse guys won't even let their dogs retrieve for fear of affecting their staunchness. They'd rather have the dog point dead. My buddies got a young GSP that has a suberb nose and an ungodly amount of point and smarts. It's a whole different game hunting behind that dog. You've really got to get out there and beat the brush on her points because often times they are 30-50 yards off the point if the wind is favorable.

I remember shooting her first grouse for her. She pointed in a pretty wide open stretch of forest late in the season. We looped around 30 yards up wind of her kicking brush and looking around. After an honest ten minutes of looking and hand signaling back and forth we couldn't produce a flush. At that point I said aloud, "She must be pointing old scent". My voice sent a grouse rocketing up out of a snow roost another 20 yards from where I was standing. I probably shouldn't have shot, but I was hoping for some divine intervention to help reward the dog for class A work.

I own her littermate and wish he was half the grouse dog she is. The only time I take back that wish is when I put a crippled pheasant on the ground. She isn't much in the retrieving department.

Like you mentioned when she is pointing grouse they seem to be unaware. I have seen another type of dog reliably produce points on grouse though. A dog that runs like a bull in a china shop and will put the breaks on at the absolute last second can shock point grouse. The grouse knows the dog is there, but buy the time he realizes it he doesn't quite know what to do. I like to think of it like two gun fighters standing there with hands on holstered pistols waiting for the other one to do something.

[setterguy]

When you finally see a true grouse dog in action you finally understand what all the fuss is about. It sometimes seems almost magical. I personally don't hunt my grouse dog on wild pheasants, case in point: I brought her to South Dakota when she was about 11 months old, we took two steps into a cut corn field and she went on point I said " I know honey, there are birds in here, we just have to get a little closer." I lightly kicked her in the rump to move on and she took two more steps and went on point again. I quickly realized that there was going to be nothing productive accomplished so I put her in the truck. I am lucky in the sense that she stops at the faintest hint of scent, and will not move until that bird does. This is what makes her such a fine grouse dog, and conversly a terrible pheasant dog. All this talk about grouse hunting and shooting birds over a perfect point have me wishing for frost and cool October winds. Good luck with the dog, which ever kind it turns out to be.

[woodview]

Setterguy: just read that book (little green paperback one, almost looks like a pamphlet?). Devoured it, and am now in the process of doing the same with the Delmar book by Tarrant (still waiting on some Gibbons/West stuff). I can say a lot of crazy things and get away with a chuckle, but the "squaw keep tipi, brave hunt" one might land me on the couch (need lots of charisma for that one) - nah I could get away with it . Lee let me borrow that first one and even though it's not real long (and I think you can download the thing) I'm still gonna find a copy to buy - good little book, touched on a couple things I'd asked about and a few I was about to.

I've hunted over the kind of dog Hubercita mentioned. Actually saw it happen real clearly at one point and the bird's body hunkered and head tucked down so fast I thought it was in danger of swallowing it's own beak. Seemed like if he didn't come stormin in right on top off him they'd bust. That dog eventually began working slower and would actually come to a gracefull, slow-motion quivering point. (woke up from a short nap this afternoon and that image was still fresh - course my dog was superimposed and I made the shot - hey it was my dream).

Can't wait for the fall either. Over at a friends house tonight working our dogs seperately (beautifull llewellyn - and really starting to impress). Talking different training things, hittin Mille Lacs, etc and jonesing to get in the woods this fall. Discussed the same things brittman pointed out and will probably keep it solo, at least to start.

Already accepting that I probably won't take a shot this year over her, but if everything is just right...

"leads gonna fly!"

may have to take a couple walks in the woods without the dog - really do like grouse so I may resort to doing the ninja-stalk through the woods on their lil rears.

Realizing I got a dog that came with an obsession

[charliepete2]

Woodview...I don't know how new you are to upland hunting over pointing dogs, but woodcock are natures best training tool. They are kind of like grouse with training wheels. They don't usually run quite as much and they hold real tight for young dogs. Even better when the flights are in and you're in a good area you're dog can get dozens of opportunities in a few hours. If the dog is out of good stock it shouldn't take too long for the lightbulb to turn on. I've got another good piece of advice for you. Unload you're gun when hunting over a new puppy. The best of intentions can be lost to quick reflexes. Same goes for anyone you might hunt with. When you see a point that you are happy with, put a few shells in the chamber and walk in. With my experienced dogs I lock and load though. Once they haved figured out the game I'll shoot wild flushed birds that the dog didn't put up and occassionally even a bump if it looks like the dog was trying to put the breaks on.

One last piece of advice on a new grouse dog. Pointing dogs are much more productive on grouse when you let them run big. I see lots of guys voice hacking their dogs to keep them within flushing dog ranges. If you want to keep your eye on the dog the whole time buy a flusher. The real benefit to hunting a pointer is letting them cover ground you wouldn't be walking on your own. The dog will also have better luck getting grouse to sit for a point when the birds don't have the additional pressure of you busting brush 20 yards behind them. Bells are a good tool, but remote activated beeper collars allow you to enjoy the walk in the woods without all the noise and quickly zero in on points. I don't even run my collar in point mode. If my dog hasn't checked in for a while I know he's on point. I just activate the collar to find him and then walk in from the direction that will allow the clearest shooting.

[WAG416]

Quote:

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but woodcock are natures best training tool. They are kind of like grouse with training wheels. They don't usually run quite as much and they hold real tight for young dogs.

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WOODCOCKS !!!

Not to mention a real good training tool for the hunter also, About 5 years ago I considered myself a decent shooter until I started hunting woodcocks. One late afternoon I used over a box of shells and still didnt get my three woodies.

I'm sure ammunition makers just love woodcock and dove hunters.

WAG

[woodview]

Had heard woodcock were a little more user friendly - plan on hitting a couple spots that have held them in the past.

Good advice on avoiding temptation with the empty gun. Odd that I've kicked up a fair share of birds the last couple years with a limit or two, and this year with a dog I'm going into it with the expectation of not shooting. (hoping otherwise)

Thinking that I won't hunt her until October since it should be better conditions for her... think I'd actually feel like a traitor if I "snuck out" for a weekend earlier without her - Do you think we're as easy for our dogs to read as they are when they've done something wrong?, cause I know I've walked out and she has crouched down and started slinking towards me all belly-crawling-like and it made me start looking around and say "what'd you do?" They look at ya like 'ah, how'd he bust me?'

thanks again for all the advice and opinions!!

WAG - shoot me an email if ya get a chance [email protected]

[WAG416]

woodview- you have mail.

[brittman]

Read these books as entertainment, not gospel. Outdoor writers are just like any other lot - some are good, some are poor - many embellish their writing with plenty of bull.

You can and should hunt both. My current/past two Brittanies have succeeded in pointing both ruffed grouse and woodcock one day in the Minnesota northwoods and wild prairie grouse and pheasants the next day in North Dakota, followed by retrieving ducks over decoys on a chilly little pond the next day. Versatile indeed.

Again, in highly pressure areas - many grouse will run and run. Then the shuffle will occur and the next grouse will sit on the road or fly up in the tree.

Two years ago, my main pup now eight years old succeeded in helping point out a limit of ruffed grouse and woodcock. She had a dozen+. She is a first class wild pheasant dog.

Woodcock are great - when you hit the main flight - the experience is priceless. When my eight year old pup was just a mere one year old "teen-ager" - we stumbled into a main flight - she had over 30 points in one hour - lost track after that. She could not retrieve the shot birds because she went on point again before she could find the dead bird.

Patience and understanding that the each bird's behavior (individual and each specie), habitat, and side shows (distractions) are all different - will go along way.