Winning In The Woods

[koWALLEYEski]

From Outdoor Life

Dan Thomason's number one key to making a great grouse dog is finding a pup thats been bred for the purpose. Your greatest mistake--worse than buying from a show line or urchasing just any available pup--is to choose one with field champions on its pedigree. Selecting for dogs that adjust range to terrain has been discussed in field-trail circles, but winnning is the first priority and thast done with big running dogs. Find a breeder who hunts forest grouse with his own dogs of your chosen breed. Next look for a litter from a mating that has already proven it produces grouse dogs.

[Mille Lacs Guy]

You are referring to a grouse dog but what breed? I have an FC English Springer Spaniel and it hunts in range for both field trails and hunting both pheasants or grouse.

I don't agree with not buying a dog with FC in the pedigree for hunting. A good trained dog is the key whether it is a Field Champion, or if it has FC, AFC in the pedigree, or if it has none of these things.

I assume you are referring to pointing dogs more than anything in your message but a good pointer will hold birds like it is bred to do.

[gspman]

I'm no expert on grouse dogs but I know what I know and I would tend to disagree (although not strongly) with Mr. Thomason. I do think it's a matter of personal taste and he expressed his in the article and in others. He does like closer ranging dogs but even in his other articles he has his dogs out there 65-75 yds. In the grouse woods that's considered out there a ways for many folks. A few would say that's not far enough.

Don't be misled into thinking that all dogs with a field trial pedigree are too independent and too big running. That's simply not the case.

I think the biggest thing for a grouse dog, other than nose and brains and bird sense, is to have a dog that goes with you and checks in regularly. If they maintain contact like that then they can get out there a little ways and find you birds you wouldn't normally find without getting lost or running off.

gspman

[setterguy]

Wow, I have never heard the argument against having champions in the blood line. That is certianly a head scratcher. It seems to me that Mr. Thomason implies or expects that a good trial dog can't hunt grouse or vise versa. Why must the two be seperate? It all depends on what kind of trial you are talking about, and how you expect your dog to handle in the grouse woods. I personally know and have hunted behind dogs that come from field trial stock that are excellent grouse dogs. I say a true champion must adapt to cover and adjust its range/style accordingly. I know that there are trials that look for extreme range and speed, but not all are like that. The only way to prove a dog is to hunt behind it or judge it in a controlled environment. Whether we like it or not those are the choices we have. Everyone who decided to have puppies thinks they are making a wise decision and the puppies will turn out great and we have gotten into the breeding subject here before.....and I know that there are plenty of good dogs that don't come from trial stock, but I think there is a much bigger risk buying a puppy from old Farmer Bill with the best gosh darn grouse dog he ever did see, than buying a puppy from a proven pedigree that has proven results. My 2 cents, which is probably exactly what its worth. Good topic, I would like to hear how other people see this subject. Sorry for the rambling it just all comes spilling out.

PS: In our field trial club, adjusting range to terrain is a major factor in judging. What is acceptable range? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Griff guy]

When I read that artical I must admit I smiled. I always have guys call that are sick of big running dogs that just spook and flush grouse. Sure they may point some, but when they are 200yds ahead and that beeper goes off you don't make it there very often. You may get that young bird that sits opening day. But after the leaves drop I want my dog where I can see when it gets birdie. Most times you have 10 seconds or less to get in possition for a shot. Woodcock are different, but spooky grouse take a dog that has a slower pace and a more deliberate stile.

Well tested breeding dogs are different then trial champions. It is not a race to see who can find the first bird. But a more cooperative walking and working togather team effort. Some trial lines I'm sure can be kept in for closer work in heavy cover but the point(no pun intended) is dogs used primarily for grouse should have a different temperament.

Griff guy

[setterguy]

Written by Terry Dupuis, Michigan grouse guide and dog trainer.

THE GROUSE DOG: Ten percent of the "cover dogs" fall into this class. This dog can be separated from the woodcock dog and the grouse/woodcock dog, by the manner in which he handles birds and works the cover. The TRUE grouse dog DOES NOT specifically point the grouse, BUT THE GENERAL AREA THE GROUSE IS IN; usually from such a distance that the that the grouse is totally unaware of the dog. Such a dog is both fast and light on his feet, has a keen pointing instinct, and ALSO has a tremendous scenting ability. He picks grouse scent STRICTLY from the air. The grouse dog can easily scale a large piece of cover in one or two passes and then go on to the next AREA. "Bird-Sense"? This dog can smell a "grouse patch" (dogwood runs, etc.), from incredible distances and for that reason knows where to begin looking and doesn't bother with the sterile areas. Looking specifically for grouse... but of course will point whatever woodcock he finds enroute. This dog will have a higher ratio of unproductive points, BUT his "bump ratio" will be nil. This dog will also work at a wider range. When grouse are found, the dog will wait for the gun to arrive and then show a more specific location of the bird, if so instructed. The grouse dog will not work a moving bird until instructed. The high headed, wind scenter, is usually a master of the "mobile point". You will rarely see him put his nose to the ground. Very few hunters have ever seen a GROUSE DOG in action. They do exist, however rare they may be.

Now take this for what its worth, agree or disagree but I think it brings up some good points on what makes a true grouse dog.

Griff guy - These guys that call and are sick of having birds flushed 200 yards out, would only have those birds flushed 30 yards ahead. And in the grouse woods 30 yards might as well be 300. The quality of the dog is the issue here, not how far away it is.

"Well tested breeding dogs are different then trial champions" - They are? Why must they be different? Are you saying that dogs with field trial champions in the pedigree are void of being themselves or producing tested dogs? I am wondering how you propose to test these dogs without trialing them. NAVHDA? For what thier purpose is its a great tool to test dogs. But not all dogs meet NAVHDA standards, how shall we test these dogs?

"But after the leaves drop I want my dog where I can see when it gets birdie" - Personal preference, here I think. I trust my dog completely. I have faith in her that even at 100 yards away, that she will find, point, and hold that bird until I arrive. I can't tell you how many birds that she has found 80 yards to my right or left that I would have never found if she hunted within gun range.

"Some trial lines I'm sure can be kept in for closer work in heavy cover but the point(no pun intended) is dogs used primarily for grouse should have a different temperament." - Different from what?

Now could CH Cypress Gunpowder, the winner of last years National Field Trial Championship, come to Minnesota and be productive on grouse? Maybe not. In that trial they are looking for extreme speed and range. Could CH Saturday Night Adrian hunt grouse in MN? Yes, and she was one of the best bird dogs that I have ever seen. And she has gone on to produce some of the finest foothunting, grouse dogs on the ground today. They both have CH in front of thier name, and yet they hunt and produce pups that hunt totally differently. I'm just asking that you don't lump all trials together when judging or predicting how dogs will turn out.

[brittman]

The older I get the less I desire to read from the "pros" and the outdoor writers. Gets to the point where you know your objectives do not meet the pros or your own personal experiences often exceed the writers.

Forums like this can often provide better ideas, etc... Discussions with others that have been on "this side of the fence" are very valuable.

Range is a subjective topic. While I prefer closer working grouse dogs, many individuals who grow up with pointing breeds are comfortable and expect the dog to reach out ...

People that are new to the pointing breeds need to be careful in purchasing a new dog. The breeders should be responsible enough to be honest with these people about range.

[setterguy]

Well said.

[brittman]

It is all about spending time with your dog. In the backyard, at the preserve or training field, and most importantly hunting.

When my dogs hit 3 - 4 years of age they are on top of the game physically. When my dogs hit 7 they have so much experience that their effectiveness is 10 fold the younger dog.

My current Britt:

1) knows to hunt patches of "other cover" within a vast CRP field. These patches and edges within the apparent endless "sea of grass" is where the birds are - she is right and it was self tought.

2) She knows to hunt deadfalls and dogwood patches dispersed through hardwood forests and other "edges" in an endless cover of aspen.

My previous Britts were the same way. Lucky - maybe, patient - yes

[Griff guy]

Setter guy

I didn't mean to ruffel your grouse feathers. You asked for other opinions on the topic. I thought I'd give you mine.

Your discription of a "TRUE" grouse dog is great.

I dout I will every see one. "Rare they may be."

Most guys want a dog that is fun to hunt with. That stays in their range (Not gun range) what ever that distance is. Many can't handle a FC dog. I'm not saying the FC dogs or breeding are bad. Just that they may be more dog than many grouse hunters care for.

I like the NAVHDA program where dogs are tested against a standard. True that standard may be harder on some versatile breeds but at least you have a base to start with. When all is said and done, you are the one that knows what your dog can or can not do.

The field trial champion dogs, I'm sure, are great dogs. What concerns me is the better than you attitude. To often people are told that because my dog has a CH it's pups will be better. Better for who I'm not sure. As long as the buyer of the pup knows what they are getting and knows how to train it they will be fine.

I want a dog that will hunt more than one type of game, that is cooperative and easily trained and that will be a great hunting compainion and family pet.

What I think is most important is to find a breed, and a line in that breed, that best fits your level of hunting. Train it the best that YOU can. Then take it out and YOU will have YOUR own "best grouse dog"!

Griff guy

[MinDak Hunter]

I have seen FC English setters and English pointers run by both pros and amateur handlers in the same field trial (one will run the open and the other the amateur). Isn't the true test of the dog how it handles and how many (game) birds it points.

"The field trial champion dogs, I'm sure, are great dogs. What concerns me is the better than you attitude. To often people are told that because my dog has a CH it's pups will be better." Griff Guy

Does a dog that is a FC have a better chance of producing pups that have natural ability (Does Cal Ripkin have a better chance of producing children with athletic ability...) Good dogs have a better chance of producing good pups.

I think that if you have a dog with the RIGHT TOOLS: good nose, field sense (knows how to work cover and the wind), trainability, and a connection to the handler you will find the RIGHT DOG FOR YOU.

I have seen FC/MH/SH labs not listen worth a lick and these dogs are machines most of the time. I have also seen my father-in-law (Jim Tande) handle many English pointers and setters like they were on a string. Right now he is in GA training his dogs off horseback on quail in pine plantations. When they come back to MN his dogs will run through cover and point grouse like they were just doing it yesterday. His dogs RUN big when they are in the field/woods/cover does that make them hard to handle?

The #1 thing about Grouse Trial dogs in MN and WI is that most trials are held in areas with wild bird populations (no planted birds) no killing of the birds is allowed. The NAVHDA trials that I was been to have used pen raised birds (so we know that they can point a bird that smells like a chicken coop but can the find wild birds?). Real birds in real hunting situations isn't that the best judge of a dogs hunting ability?

There is no “right answer” to this... But I feel that is you want a truly EXCEPTIONAL dog buy one that comes from TRULY EXCEPTIONAL lines and train it accordingly.

SEE BOTH LINKS BELOW FOR MORE INFO ON COVER DOGS AND FIELD TRIALS:

Mike Martin

[setterguy]

Mike - As much as I agree with you, no links. Sorry. I think that most people that are disregarding trial dogs have never really hunted behind one. They are basing opinions on things that they here on TV or read on the web.

You are truely blessed to have a man like Mr. Tande be part of your family. He is one of the most trusted, knowledgable, and humble men you will ever meet and is held in very high regard in the dog world and in life. Have you heard how he is doing down there?

[MinDak Hunter]

Setter Guy-

Jim and the dogs are doing well down there.

It is my understanding that they are "holding their own" in several trials that they have been to (I think Hawthorn Kate took 2nd in the Round Pond Shooting Dog Classic held on Sandy Walker's Round Pond Plantation, Leslie, Georgia).

[Griff guy]

This is an exact e-mail I received last week from someone looking for a pup.

"I have a 9yr old female shorthair that is great on pheasants. However, I've recently been doing a lot of waterfowl hunting in big water such as the mississippi near LaCrosse, and will be doing a lot of grouse hunting this coming year in northern WI. My shorthair is out of Rawhide's Clown lines and is a huge runner. I'd like to be able to keep the next dog in the same county as me without the e-collar. What is a typical range for your dogs in a pheasant hunting situation? I know this would be tough to say based on terrain/conditions and whatever else, but I'm assuming that he'll stay a bit closer than a field trial shorthair."

This is what I hear very often. Great dogs but often more than the handler can handle. It is not the dogs fault. I agree that great dogs come from great lines. Natural ability is very genetic along with other traits. If I was trying to obtain a FC title I definitely would look for FC in the pedigree.

What the original article said was to get a pup from a breeder that hunts (wild birds of course) the way that you hunt, and that has produced offspring that have proven themselves to have natural ability. (By what ever test available) Having first hand knowlege on what a dog can do is probably the best way to select a line that is right for you.

The nice thing is that there are many breeds and lines that will do what people are looking for in their hunting dogs.

The real question is are they willing to commit to the training and discipline to achieve their dogs potential.

Griff guy

[gspman]

I think we can all agree that it's all a matter of personal preference and we shouldn't look down on other's dogs because they don't meet our own unique set of standards.

I would agree that the average Joe would have their hands full with a big running dog. They take a lot of concentration and sometimes a lot of handling. They often are not what I would call a "comfortable" hunting dog. On a bad day, they can be a pain in the a$$. On the other hand, on a good day they can do some truly amazing things.

Field trial and field champion do not automatically equate to extreme range when it comes to offspring. Most of the pup's in a field trial breeding will not have the same range or performance as their parents. It's a genetics thing that I can't explain.

Rawhides Clown:

Rawhides Clown was an All-Age shorthair who won the GSP All-Age National Championship 3 times in a row in the early 90's. Clown was not the biggest running all-age GSP out there. He just found and handled birds better than the others and looked better doing it. Those are traits anyone would want in their dog. I certainly would expect many but not all dogs out of Clown to run big. Clown is only half of the equation, there also has to be a big running female to increase the likelihood of big running offspring.

Both of my dogs have Clown and some other well known horseback GSP's in their pedigree. My first dog Sammy ran big enough to run in Gun-Dog horseback stakes. Sammy was out of 2 all-age trial dogs and I think most folks would consider her big running. As my first dog, she was a hand full. But I didn't know any different and just hunted the heck out of her. Of the 20 or so dogs I've had the chance to hunt behind, she's in the top 2. Setterguy's Kenai is the other one in the top 2. My current dog Dixie won't run big enough for horseback trials. She has Clown twice in her pedigree. Her father is a huge running all-age dog and her mother a gun-dog type. To demonstrate that field champion doesn't equal extreme range we can check Dixie's pedigree. Out of the first 64 dogs in her pedigree, 45 are field champions and many are all-age dogs. I'm sure many of the remaining dogs in her pedigree were trialed too. I think the average Joe could hunt with and handle her easily and have fun doing it.

As someone mentioned before, the key is to talk to the breeder. The breeder should have a good idea of what kind of pups the mating will throw. The onus is really on the buyer though. They should ask to see the sire and dam hunt and they need to ask the questions and if they don't like what they hear then they should move on.