Spring walking trials

[setterguy]

This is an open invitation to any pointing dog fans out there. Again this spring the Minnesota Bird Hunters Association will be holding two spring walking trials. April 9-10 and April 22-24. Both trials will be held at the Four Brooks WMA which is located in Onamia, MN about 20 miles south of Lake Mille Lacs on the west side of HWY 169. Below is a list of standards and a little info on the club. Even if you don't have a dog to enter it is a wonderful time to come and enjoy some wonderful dogs. Feel free to post any questions here, look forward to seeing some of you this spring. Please disregard the dates below, this was written a couple years ago.

Minnesota Bird Hunters Association

First and foremost, the MBHA provides an opportunity to enjoy good dog

work and the camaraderie of fellow pointing dog enthusiasts. These

trials provide an opportunity to prove a dog in competition. However,

our focus is on the process of improving our dogs. If you have never

participated in a field trial …. Don’t worry, any member of the club

will be happy to help get you started.

The MBHA follows the judgment criteria of the American Bird Hunters

Association (ABHA) which is fully sanctioned and recognized by the

Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America (AFTCA). Therefore, ABHA trials

are nationally recognized by the Field Dog Stud Book (FDSB) and any

placements are recognized in the pedigree of any animal registered

with the FDSB.

MBHA trials and judgment criteria focus on traits that constitute the

ultimate foot hunting gun dog. Judgment criteria is based on the dog’s

age. Age groups and judgment criteria are outlined below. This is by

no means a complete accounting of the criteria by which an animal is

judged.

I. SHOOTING DOGS are judged on the following criteria.

A. Steady to flush. Specifically, this means the dog may not move after

the dog has established point.

B. Ground application. Shooting dogs should posses intense desire to

find birds. They should display speed, stamina, industry and

independence. At the same time, their search should lead them to

logical objectives where birds would likely be found. Shooting Dogs

should also adjust their pace and range to be most effective for the

work at hand. In other words, they should adjust to the cover.

C. Handling. Shooting dogs should be quick to locate their handler and

respond kindly to commands.

D. Bird Finding. Keen ability to detect the presence of game, and to

locate it accurately and promptly.

E. Backing. Shooting dog are required to back if the situation presents

itself.

F. Retrieving. Placement for shooting dogs requires a retrieve.

G. Other. Some additional factors in consideration of placements are:

1. Style of carriage and grace of movement.

2. Willingness to face heavy cover or other handicaps.

3. Intensity on point.

4. Handling birds at an exceptional distance.

II. DERBY DOGS (Born after 1/1/00) are judged on their potential as a

finished Shooting Dog. They should demonstrate:

A. Speed and stamina while hunting to the course.

B. Ability to locate and point birds quickly and accurately.

C. Staunchness on point. Steady until flush.

D. Bird sense, hunting objectives likely to hold wild birds.

* Derby dogs are not required to back or retrieve.

III. Puppy Judging Standards (Born after 1/1/01) Focus is on natural

qualities. They should posses desire to hunt and instinct to

point. They should also, show intelligence and courage in their

ground application. Pups should have good conformation & style.

[kentuck_ike]

setterguy, does mbha have a HSOforum? You have seen Willie's "buddy" work, how do you think he we do at something like this. I have been thinking about trailing my dogs but I don't feel educated enough to make the 1st step. How do the people at these trials feel about or treat first timers?

Ike

[setterguy]

The MBHA does not have a HSOforum at this time, we have been working on it but nothing as of yet. I have seen Buddy work and can tell you that he would do just fine. This would be a great club to get into, we have a growing membership and have enough members to hold a regional championship. First timers are welcomed with open arms anyone there will help you with any questions you have. The thing that is great about our club is the fact that we allow a gallery with any brace. Meaning anyone can walk with any dog and watch the trial from up-close, not watching with binoculars from the truck. If nothing else, attend the first trial and see how it goes. If you like the way its run you can enter a dog in the next one. However I wouldn't hesitate to enter in the first trial, there is really nothing to it and if you have questions during the brace the judge is right there to tell you what you can/can't, should/shouldn't do. If you have any other questions I can email you our Presidents phone #, he will be able to give you all the info you want, and more. It would be fun to see some other dogs.

[kentuck_ike]

If you would send me the Pres. contact info that would great. Do you have any activities south of the cities. I think you have my e-mail address.

Thanks, Ike

[gspman]

Hey Setterguy,

What breeds tend to dominate these trials? Do you see many continentals that are competitive?

Never mind this section. I just read your post a little more closely.

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DERBY DOGS (Born after 1/1/00) - That date tells me that a 5 year old dog is still a Derby. Is that correct? That seems too old to me. Same with the puppy date. For AKC trials puppies stakes are 6-15 months and derby stakes are 6 months to 2 years at time of trial.

*********************

My pup would be under 2 years old at the time of this trial and it would be fun to run her as a derby if she qualified.

gspman

[setterguy]

I would say that most definetly English Setters have more placements in our trials than any other breed, However I would say that 75% of the dogs running are ES. The other 25% are English Pointers, Red Setters, and GSPs with the occasional Britt or Gordon Setter with the numbers of these breeds growing every year. This club started out with a core group of members, most owned ES. Now how the continental breeds fare is a tough question just because we don't get a lot of them. I can say this...I offered this a couple years ago and a guy from this site came up and ran his GWP and won the ametuer division. His dog wasn't the biggest runner, not the flashiest on point but he hit his objectives, handled like a dream and found 4 birds. I can assure you that there is no breed favoritism. Any one of our members are going to be the first to recognize a good dog, no matter what color it is. I don't think you would have anything to worry about with Dixie, she runs plenty big for these trials.

[brittman]

So what kind of birds to you plant?

How long does each dog run (time each dog is actually in the field)?

Not sure what these short time trials actually measure vs what a HUNTER is looking for. A hunter's bird dog should hunt well with their owners morning to dusk - day to day - all season long.

What I expect from a hunting dog: Excellent nose and desire, strong relationship with hunter (my partner!), and a pace that allows them to go all day long.

I hunt preserves on occasion and often have my five or six birds down in too short order. It is the rest of the afternoon hunting for a couple scratch birds that proves most memorable.

Better yet it the scenting, tracking, pinning, pointing, and shooting (at) an experienced wild pheasant or grouse that is the true test of a hunting dogs capabilities.

Brittanys

Often enough, Britts do not run well vs the long legged pointers in 30 or 60 minute time trials looking for a couple of planted birds, but ...

Britts are shorter in stature and the breed should stay that way. Maybe not as pretty and sylish as the setters and big running as the pointers, but with the exception of GSPs Bitts are cetainly more versatile than these bigger breeds. Our Britts hunt waterfowl with us (water and field) over decoys too.

Day in - day out I put my trust in my best hunting partner(s) - my Brittany

I apologize if I appear to be attacking other dog breeds - everyone has their favorite - that's OK by me. I will be the first to admit I get defensive when Britts are compared to other breeds based upon field trial data.

I also do not want to come across attacking this trial or other trials to hard. I realize that one real purpose of these types of trials is to provide entertainment for both handler and dog during the off-season.

[setterguy]

Our Braces are 30 minutes, with regional championships being 60 minute braces. We usually plant chuckar, they seem to be the strongest flyers in advers condidtions. Brittman - I'm not sure why the ruffled feathers, I never meant to compare any breed to any other in relation to performance in trials. I would hope that you would attend a trial and see what these dogs can do and how they do it. Our club is a walking trial, and we expect dogs to handle as such. We do like to see dogs that cover ground, but a dog that's out of control will immediatly be disqaulified. Everyone enjoys the breed they own, thats why we own them. Trials are simply a way to prove your dog against other dogs the same age. Some people learn that thier dog is much better than they ever thought, and some find out that don't have quite the dog they thought they did. Its a learning process, as to what you enjoy about hunting. Each of us do it a little different. What you look for in an animal may not be what I look for. The same goes for trial groups, there is a group out there for everyone. Some groups reward bird finding above all else, some recognize style and stamina. What ever you are looking for I would hope that you find a group that you can enjoy your dog and meet some new friends. Good luck to you.

[gspman]

Brittman,

There are Britt's that can compete with the best of any pointing breed in almost any format. Delmar Smith used to run Britt's off of horseback and he even beat the long-tailed dogs in a few trials and I think he won a pretty big championship with a Britt too. And that was down in OK and TX where huge running dogs are a requirement to win.

The goal of a field trial is not for entertainment although they can and should be plenty entertaining and fun for everyone. It's about determining the best dog for that day and improving the breed(s). However, if your style of dog or your opinion on what the breed should be like or what betters the breed differs from the trial standard, then you may not agree that it will better the breed. I am sure that many folks who are into NAVHDA do not think horseback trials are a good thing and vice versa. There are also all-age pointer trialers that think little of coverdog trials. It's all a matter of personal taste. Find something that suits you and go with it. If it's hunting and nothing else then so be it. Trialing is just another way to extend and prolong working/hunting with your dog. A dog can only benefit from this.

To me a field trial of any type absolutely measures what a hunter should look for in a dog. A walking trial should be right up the average hunter's alley. A horseback trial just takes a few of the requirements to the extreme. The standard that Setterguy put in his opening post has just what you are looking for. Nose, desire, handling, etc. It's all in there.

As for stamina, most dogs who are trial worthy will have more than enough bottom to go all day. They learn to turn it up for a trial and to pace themselves for a hunt. My first dog would die before she'd guit hunting. She could easily go all day for multiple days in a row.

For handling, most trial dogs can and will hunt with you and go with you. I would think that would be especially true with walking trial dogs.

Also I've never met anyone that complained that their dog's pedigree had too many field titles in it.

Brittman, if you can't make Setterguy's trial, I think you should check out the trials and hunt tests that the MN Britt Club or the St Croix Valley Britt Club holds. They have horseback and walking stakes that are open to all pointing breeds and some that are limited to just Britts. I think you'd find them very intriguing and a good learning experience. Plus you'd get to meet some folks who love the Britt as much as you do. I went to my first coverdog trial last spring and just had a blast. Great folks. Very friendly and wanted you to feel right at home.

As a sidenote, my first dog placed 2nd in the MN Brittany Club Spring trial as a derby many years ago. She got beat by a wirehair that could just kicked a$$.

gspman

[kentuck_ike]

Brittman, I would tend to disagree about a britts capablities in walking type trails. Britts have and can be very sucessful in them. Just look at the Nstra results, they have been dominated by Nolan's last bullet "Buddy" and now Buddy's sons are also doing quite well. I agree with the all day hunting aspect of them as well. The desire to hunt & please can be used to great benifit on trails as well as in the field. The thing I like best about brittanys is the fact that a show dog, a field trail dog, & a good hunting dog, can very often be the same dog.

Ike

[Wild Willie]

Setterguy - count me in for the walking events in April. I just happened to throw Buddy in the Jeep last Saturday and headed over to the Minnesota Horse and Hunt Club. I got a little intimidated at first so I tucked tail and ran. I ownly made it down the road a couple of miles before I decided I was just acting like a big chicken so I turned the Jeep around and went back and entered the competition. Wow...am I glad I changed my mine because both me and my dog had a blast. What a learning experince...of course my dog did much better than I did as I had no idea what I was doing. But Buddy ran the field like a champion and made me proud. He found all five birds (plus a rooster pheasant), one safety (gate bird), five pointed birds, two misses by me, five shots, three retrieves, three birds in the bag and full time alloted.

Here's the thing. Right out of the gate just about 10 yards, Buddy locks up on point. I'm thinking man this is going to be easy, so I walk real nice and slow just past my steady dog and kick the chukar out and immediately call for a safety. As we continue the hunt the Judge looks over at me and says something like - "Man I can tell your new at this game by the way you just kind of carefully and slowly walked over to your dog." My reply was "how else are you suppose to do it? My dog found a bird, he is locked on point, I walk past the steady dog, flush the bird, shoot the bird, and the dog retrieves the bird to me, right?" He chuckled and replied "most hunters in these events run past the dog and kick the bird out and shoot it has fast as they can to get the retrieve then run to the next quadrant ahead of the dog to get to the next bird!" I said, "Oh, I get it...this is speed race, you get bonus points for beating the clock. But I would prefer to let my dog do the running and hunting. He is much faster than me and has a vastly superior nose to mine and this field can't be much more than five acres in size anyway!"

Don't get me wrong fellas...I had a great time and it was fun to watch the other dogs and hunters run (literally) later that afternoon. But I think the events you have mentioned will be more appealing to me. Buddy and I have a month or so to work on his retrieves. What is the retrieve rules/regulation/requirements regarding your clubs walking events? What are the fees associated with the event?

Setterguy and gspman...I'm meeting Ike and a couple of other guys at the Caribou Hunt Club Wednesday morning for a breakfast meeting and 10:00am walk through the fields with the dogs - any interest? Breakfast will be a 9:00am at the dinner at the end of main steet in LeCenter. Setteryguy you could come along even if Kenai can't make it...there should be plenty of good dog work to observe.

[gspman]

Hey Wild Willie,

Thanks for the offer, sounds like a great time. Unfortunately between work and family commitments I won't be able to do Wed. Keep me in mind in the future though. As for hunting tournaments. I volunteered at the US Open once or twice. I didn't really care for people running with shotguns, and the format didn't quite appeal to me so it's not really my cup of tea. But the contestants sure had a good time though. Have fun.

gspman

[brittman]

OK maybe I was a little over reactive, but I did state:

Quote:

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I apologize if I appear to be attacking other dog breeds - everyone has their favorite - that's OK by me. I will be the first to admit I get defensive when Britts are compared to other breeds based upon field trial data.

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I have a seven year old female Britt that is second to none on wild birds. Her intuition and responsiveness has just been fantastic - this was the year that every dog owner works for. Must admit, I do get a little wiley when people start talking "ratings" on dog's using planted birds.

but I will answer each of you.

Setterguy: I know you were just promoting the trials you enjoy so much and my comments were not directed specifically at you.

GSP: I know of Delmar Smith. Read his books. He is a big proponent of non-force training techniques which I favor.

Field Trials (here what I said):

Quote:

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I also do not want to come across attacking this trial or other trials to hard. I realize that one real purpose of these types of trials is to provide entertainment for both handler and dog during the off-season.

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I said the goals of "these" trials is entertainment. I am fully aware of the pro field trials. Those types are mainly all about bragging rights and money (breeding)! I have met several people that run the field circuit and have been neighbors to several on the pro lab trial circuit.

Agree - trials do serve to benchmark the breed. Debate would be ongoing regarding the "improve" comment.

SCVBC

I have been a member of the SCVBC on and off over the past 10 years. I trained my Britts regularily at Bob's farm every week in the summer on quail. Then when most everyone else left, Bob would let me run my pup on the pheasants at the back of his place. Great guy - miss him.

Most of the other members were good guys/gals too and I may join again with another pup on the way. They are just walking a different path that I chose to walk. I found it interesting that many were gearing up for fall trials when I was getting my dog and pup ready for grouse and pheasant season.

Back when my dog was one, many of the SCVBC members were at at a weekend trial. I was bird hunting with a friend north of town. She had no less than 35 solid points on woodcock and another 4 on grouse. Which dog(s) had a better day?

Big Runnng Britts

Personally I really think Britts should be trialed behind foot hunters only. My point was accept the Brittany for what they are and do not breed them to compete with pointers and big running setters - just for the challange.

Ike: Fully agree. Britts can and do compete well with other pointing breeds when the ground rules are established fairly for smaller breeds. NSTRA does this.

Quote:

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Really, all of the questions about "why" can be answered simply. Shoot-To-Retrieve was founded by sportsmen with a common goal-the enjoyment of their pointing dogs. These men were hunters, field trialers and men who just enjoyed being in the field with their dogs. What they wanted to do was extend the normal open hunting season from a few weeks to a longer period of time. A common goal was seen, and the National Association was born to foster the growth of walking style, quality type trials for all of the pointing breeds.

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Note one of NSTRA's primary missions is to "extend the season" - entertainment.

Put 2 and 2 together. Small world Ike - my next pup is coming from your place!

I will try keep my mouth shut on the race hunts promoted by game preserves.

[setterguy]

Brittman, I appreciate the explanation. believe me there were no hard feelings on my part. I know that everyone gets a little defensive when they think people are "talking down" thier breed of choice. Heck it happens to me when the pointer owners start yappin. "Bring em up here in December" I tell them. Same thing. I know the idea of judging dogs on planted birds isn't the most ideal situation. But when you are judging one dog against another you try and have all other things equal. There are grouse trials that are run on wild birds, but in these trials there is no shooting and sometimes a bird won't be found all day.

I will say this, there are a number of trial dogs that I would never bring hunting. There are a number of fantastic hunting dogs that would never have a chance in a trial. There isn't a perfect medium, but believe me when I say trials are necessary to produce good hunting dogs for the future. I hope you come up and check us out. The first time I attended a trial it was nothing like I was expecting. I was intimidated, I was only 23, never owned a pointing dog before, and didn't have a clue how to handle myself. Everyone was very nice, patient and helpful. I went out there asked lots of questions, made some mistakes and ended up coming home with a second place finsish. I hope you can make it.

WW- Thanks for the invite. I would love to get out, but the winter of home-improvement is almost over and the pergo flooring is going in today and tomorrow. Hope you guys have a great time.

[Billjr]

Ignore my last post on dates of trials I din't see this so I now have the dates for the spring trials

[setterguy]

Just a little reminder that the first trials are this weekend, just north of Milaca MN. A good chance to get out, enjoy the great weather we are going to have, meet some great people, have a burger on the grill and see some wonderful dog work. If anyone has any questions please don't hesitate to call.

Justin Novatney

651-248-0155