More trapping of dogs...

[lichen fox]

I don't think anyone is saying one kind of dog is more important than another or a hunter with dogs has more rights than susie who is walking her dog down a forest trail...The point is...both, or all are acting within thier legal rights...it is not currently illegal to use a 220 as a ground set...albeit that could soon change as could regulations for allowing domestic pets to run free on public lands...But in reallity, I really don't see susie walking fluffy in most area's that a trapper would trap for fisher, bobcat and martin, it's not like these critters really like hanging around area's with high human traffic...Hunters with dogs however will take thier dogs to such places realizing the risks whatever they may be...We all care just as much about fluffy as we do hunter....

[Random guy]

Tim I see from your information you are from a region very different then rural Minnesota. It is always hard to explain a different way of life to somebody not living it.

A few examples of utilizing a public resource or lands for profit:

Logging and the timber industry

Hydro power

The entire fishing industry

The entire hunting industry

Wind generated power

The entire hiking/camping

State parks

Boat ramps

Sate owned mining leases

Leased farm lands

Bait harvest

Hay crops of right away

ATV licenses

Snomobile licenses

…and trapping

As far as labiality I’m not sure what the penalty is for shooting or dispatching a dog on public land? That would be the basis for penalty if one was killed in a trap correct?

As for incompatible use we are in the starting stages of that by governing on public land a 220 cannot be set on ground. We are basically starting a situation where conflicting use and the method of use are to be decided and enforced by the trustee of the land.

Strict zoning is pretty good example of this such as some communities in Illinois attempted.Initail result was multiple civil disputes over the use of the land before all was given up and the land eventually zoned for growth and a safe prospering environment without the imposing threats of industry and the effects of such. End results is these now zoned lands hve become slums and lost all hopes rehabilitation. It takes some negatively perceived actions for an overall good sometimes.

[monstermoose78]

+1

[TimR]

We all take chances hunting is a chance. Taking your dog into the woods is a chance it might come out alive because of coyote wolf or a trap. Maybe your dog chased a deer and i was out hunting and i shot it. If you dont want your dog to get trapped keep it in your house same goes with cats.

Your response typifies those I'm trying to point out. Trappers would do well to recognize that burying your head in the sand and shouting "I'm legal, darnit!" will not get you your intended response in a changing world.

I'll humor you and take your comment at face value. So maybe you are out squirrel hunting and I am chasing rabbits with my old lab, and he runs off. You think he is chasing a deer and blaze away with your .22.

According to the MN DNR, you are legal.

"Between January 1 and July 14, a dog that is observed wounding,

killing, or pursuing in a way that endangers big game may be killed by

any person. A peace officer or conservation officer may kill a dog that

endangers big game at any time of the year. The officer or person is not

liable for damages for killing the dog."

Are you comfortable looking a dog owner in the face and saying "yep, that deer was getting tired, and in a snow year like this, that was endangering that there deer.".

If so - good for you, you and I are wired differently.

Tim

[monstermoose78]

When I take my dog to refuge ducking its on a leash not because he does not listen, but to protect him. I am a bird hunter as well. I dont trap any more but if i want to i should be able to. Just as you can hunt with your dog. You know its trapping season! Then you are rolling the dice taking your dog hunting. If trappers did not trap there would be less ground nesting game birds for both of us to chase. trapping season is very short small game hunting is a very long season so lets shorten them both to 9 days and see how that grabs people. I can get some grouse in 9 and would fine with a 9 day season.

During firearms season do you wear brown out into the woods? No because you know that you may get shot. Same goes with trapping season if you bring your dog you know it might get trapped.

[TimR]

Jonny P -

I live in the ex-urbs now, that is not where I was born or raised. I understand the rural way of life well.

I have no issues with making a profit off of a public resource. My question is there to elicit thought. I was suprised at your comments in this thread after reading what you write in other areas. It's usually a well thought out point of view.

A person who states they make part of their living off of a public resource should realize that diminishing the concerns of other users of that resource won't get you to a mutally benefitial end point. You have valid concerns, as does the visiting vacationer. You won't get that vacationer to listen to your valid points if you state that your livelihood is more important than their pets life, or that it has been done this way since the 50's, or that three legged rabid skunks will be defecating on the deck (I love that argument, btw).

I can see both sides of the debate. In the interest of all outdoor sports hanging together, I wish the ardent trappers would look at the overall situation and recognize the concerns of dog owners.

My only real question, which I truly don't understand, is why trappers feel they are not responsible for any death/injury caused by the traps they set?

The comment about incompatible use is that it appears the general public (who shares ownership of the resource) would be inclined to understand the side of the dog owner. The extreme end of that debate is incompatible use, does the trapping minority want to fight that battle?

What I see here, is that trappers are choosing to not have a reasonable discussion with what should be the section of public most closely aligned with their hobby/livelhood. How then is that going to go with Susie Suburbanite?

Tim

Tim I see from your information you are from a region very different then rural Minnesota. It is always hard to explain a different way of life to somebody not living it.

A few examples of utilizing a public resource or lands for profit:

<snip>hve become slums and lost all hopes rehabilitation. It takes some negatively perceived actions for an overall good sometimes.

[monstermoose78]

So tim because your hunting may have chased away that critter he was going to trap do you have to pay him for his loss?

[memyself@I]

Jonny P

There is plenty of intellect on both sides of this issue, its got nothing to do with where one resides in Minnesota. Public land is for ALL of us to enjoy and use, and you mentioned many. As a resident of Northern MN you have great hunting, fishing, trapping, berry picking, wild places readily accessible to you, that is an advantage you have. Never, ever take that for granted, please.

From what I can glean, 220s are very effective and in a run-n-gun world, efficient. Efficiency may be fine and convenient when it comes to making money but it also has a downside and that is in this case the killing of dogs of people who have every right to be on public land as well. Minnesota isn't this wide open wild area for a number of reasons including more people, more people traveling all over the place because of technology (the internet, smartphones, GPS and on and on) to pursue what they enjoy. So it is time for some reasonable change. Will it be good or bad?? The put downs and snide remarks do no good for anybody, just polarize. We already have plenty of that.

[Random guy]

Problem is not that trappers are facing a new issue but we are facing yet another issue. Years of being pushed into a corner have taken individuals that normally in tune to nature and the serenity it offers and flipping them. I would go as far as saying a trapper is the last one that wants to be noticed, heard or seen, but we have been bully slapped into a furious rage from years of being told we are lesser people our ways wrong and we must always succumb to the wishes of other groups. What you are seeing from the trapping community is a group of people that have just been pushed to the limit. Angst is running rampant right now among the guys in hip boots and to be honest I fully understand that feeling. I am a licensed bait dealer, bear guide and fishing guide that deals with ever changing regulations and absurd rulings on a regular basis. Granted change is a pain but we deal with it and go on. Now as far as the trapping regulations go it has finally reached the point of too much. I think this one is going to backfire big time as the trapping community may have finally had enough.

[memyself@I]

The pity card won't work. Put it away. Period.

[monstermoose78]

then let your dog die

[memyself@I]

Nice post. This is exactly the problem.............................

[Random guy]

The pity card won't work. Put it away. Period.

Well what in the heck is belly aching about a dog then? I have heard about the dog is part off the family, the dog cost 10k, the dog can't be on a leash, the dog cant run free, the dog this and the dog that. Is that not one HUGE pity party?

The pity card started all this with a grown man crying about his dog on TV.

[TimR]

Monstermoose78, I'll humor you one more time.

No - because there is no loss. There was no definite action.

A better comparison for you to understand is this: If I, or my old lab decided to gnaw on the 3 legged rabid defecating skunk that Trapper XYZ caught in his trap - why certainly - I would pay restitution to the trapper.

But, using your logic, the trapper should just deal with the fact that my old lab trotted off down the trail with the 3 legged rabid skunk and his trap. Why? Because as you put it, when you are utilizing a public resource with multiple uses, "you are rolling the dice".

I don't think I am getting through to you, and you didn't answer my questions, so best of luck and thank you.

Tim

So tim because your hunting may have chased away that critter he was going to trap do you have to pay him for his loss?

[memyself@I]

Take a look at monster mooses post please

[monstermoose78]

Not that long ago a guy laid down in the middle of the highway he was killed! Was it his right to lay down in the highway? yes it was. Bad choice yeah!We all make choice and have to live by what we do. If you take your dog into the woods during trapping season its your choice but know that traps are set and your dog may or may not be trapped. I hunt with a dog but come trapping season I don't because I know what waits in the woods.

[Random guy]

I know what waits in the woods.

The Boogie Man?!

I know everbody is ticked but I had to, I thought it was funny.

[monstermoose78]

that is why my dog does not get to hunt during trapping season!

[TimR]

Jonny P -

I can understand that, I see where you are coming from. It doesn't make it any better, but in all areas of life people are becoming fed up with ever increasing regulation and scrutiny.

It is important to note that the trappers closest neighbor (hunters), are saying to you "hey, we have a problem we need to deal with together". Some knuckleheads are telling the hunters to go pound sand.

If a decent discussion can't even be had with hunters, how is it going to go with the rest of the public that shares that resource?

You have very valid points about the benefits trapping brings to the wider public, and trapper's rights as a portion of the public. Be wary of letting the "rage" be heard in the the voice of trappers - it's not how opinions are swayed.

Good luck,

Tim

Problem is not that trappers are facing a new issue but we are facing yet another issue. Years of being pushed into a corner have taken individuals that normally in tune to nature and the serenity it offers and flipping them. I would go as far as saying a trapper is the last one that wants to be noticed, heard or seen, but we have been bully slapped into a furious rage from years of being told we are lesser people our ways wrong and we must always succumb to the wishes of other groups. What you are seeing from the trapping community is a group of people that have just been pushed to the limit. Angst is running rampant right now among the guys in hip boots and to be honest I fully understand that feeling. I am a licensed bait dealer, bear guide and fishing guide that deals with ever changing regulations and absurd rulings on a regular basis. Granted change is a pain but we deal with it and go on. Now as far as the trapping regulations go it has finally reached the point of too much. I think this one is going to backfire big time as the trapping community may have finally had enough.

[Random guy]

Fully understood Tim and I guess a big part of this that is missing from this particular debate is the fact several meetings/discussions have been held, phone conferences and I have spent two days on the phone with elected officials discussing this and to be honest it’s has been one sided since the start. Those of you that have kids have had the every answer is no conversation. That’s what these meetings/ calls have been. Every suggestion or idea is greeted with a very prompt “NO”. I couldn’t even get the suggestion out of my mouth about permits before a “NO” rang out. I couldn't even finish the sentance and I talk very fast. It has already been decided to push for no 220s and that’s the only option allowed from the other side of the fence. To many taxpayers and votes outside the rural districts to sway that.

[Random guy]

Ok I'm done for the day, time to fill out minnow permits. Have fun and I wil catch up with the dog debates in the morning.

[memyself@I]

Well I do like your picture, you're stylin, man. That is one deep drainage ditch. The humor was good, monstermoose78 post "then let your dog die" was......well it speaks for itself.

But its a waste of time to post as reason and logic seems to have very little place on internet forums, I forgot that one point.

I did live and work in your country for 18 years, Jonny, and I do know your dad and Jimmy although not very well. And I do know about their role in the 80s situation.

I expect we'll be meeting soon down some road, somewhere, over this issue, and look forward to it.

[bigg edd]

It's really sad to see people arguing on a "outdoor" site like this. It makes me wonder if my kids or grand kids will ever get to enjoy the outdoors without having to have a permit and take a class to step into the woods. The ball is already rolling. I'm sure the antis love reading stuff like this.....

[monstermoose78]

well memyself@I your name says it all! its all about you and not the good of the people!

[BrettH]

Jonny, have been a real fan of yours over the years. Love reading your fishing posts. I have said nurmerous times to friends of mine that you provide the best info for comming up to Upper Red and the LOW Rainy River areas and how your info at least for me has created a loyal customer to the area. However, Jonny with regard to this issue I can't disagree with you more.

I don't live in the cities I live in the boonies near Aitkin. I am afield constantly regardless of season, I am by no means an anti, and by most, would be considerd a avid outdoorsman. I am perfectly content to deal with the NATURAL hazards that I or my dog may encounter while in the wild. Yes, I intended to use the caps lock on natural. Traps placed on the ground and baited are not natural they are placed by humans then left to catch anything that sticks it's head in. Trappers like yourself that place the blame on the dog owners for getting killed in one of these is really frustrating because it polarizes us. The more I read posts like that the more I get ticked off and the more I want them off the ground no matter what.

I have been very close and highly involved in pushing the change to the 220 regulation, in fact if you read the Star Tribune Political section of todays paper you will find that a state rep and a senator have authored a bill to get the 220's off the ground. You mention a few uplanders are teaming with Anti groups to get this pushed through. Yes a lot of press has been made of this that has brought in all kinds of views. But, the core group involved with wanting change are the farthest from anti trapping that you as a trapper could hope to have. We would like to have well spoken trappers involved and I am sure there will be but, if you think that the passion you feel for trapping is intense I can assure you that the love for our dogs is just as impassioned. I hope the trapping industry sees the merrit in working towards a solution that will protect our dogs rather than having one shoved down their throat.