.223 for deer?

[HeviShot]

I shot a doe last season with my Colt SP1 AR-15 .223. She went 10 yards and dropped at 115 yards. As you all stated shot placement is key, but just as important is the bullet you choose. The 60gr nosler partition was an amazing round, but beware of what twist your barrel has. Pay attention to what the foot pounds are at what distances, the .223 is close to 1,000 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards, its drops to less then 700 at 200 yards. Shot much over 100 yards should not be taken.

[HandGunner]

The .223 is an irresposible way to take a deer...we owe them a better death than that.

a bullet uses shock and bullet exspantion to destroy the vtals to take em down... a arrow takes game by cutting of major arteries and veins in the vitals. so what it seems like your saying is that bowhunting is irresposible.

looking twards getting a RRA ar-15 pistol 10 inch barrel. Who knos this is all hapenng kinda fast right now. i think the RRA pisol shooting a .223 is good for deer out to 100 yards max. like i said were i hunt its not like i got time to shoot deer out at a distance otherwise id be carrying a bolt action rifle besides handguns and shottys.

[Abndoc]

223's have been killing 200lb men for years I would think a deer should be no problem.

This is actually not true. Most of our enemy kills come from very large caliber guns, artillery, tanks, aircraft, helo's. In my 3 deployments overseas, this bullet is a joke. Full metal jacket...to fast, not enough expansion. As a shooter/medic, I worked on many many gunshot wounds. Some very well placed shots did very little damage. Imagine a #2 pencil shaped hole through a body. If your off your mark just a little...nothing but a sore spot on the guy. If you decide to use this weapon to hunt, you better spend some serious time at the range and shooting many different types of bullets. Sub-sonic varmint rounds would be my choice.

[HeviShot]

That is why in vietnam they they were trying out heavier bullets, 70gr. This would cause the bullet to tumble with the 1:12 twist creating a bigger hole. Unfortunetly the sub-sonic varmit round would be your worst choice for deer, as the bullet will fragment to pieces on impact. You need controlled expansion.

[Abndoc]

Hevi...your probably right about deer. I just mean for killing factor, they are devasting and thru a suppressor..very very quiet!!

[LightningBG]

I'm still wondering why??? These guns you mentioned are hardly pistols. They are more like really short rifles (when you really need 2 hands to be accurate (one up on the stock)).

If I wanted to shoot a pistol, I'd want it to look and act like a pistol.

If I want to hold it like a rifle, use a rifle.

And even though a .223 is capable of taking a deer. I always cringe when I see someone using one. One of my buddies used one for a couple years (rifle) and whenever I heard him shoot, I made sure I kept my eyes peeled, because I was sure there was going to be a wounded deer wandering around.

[TooTallTom]

HandGunner, as HeviShot said, a .223 at 200 yards has 700 foot-pounds of energy. (I assume he's talking about a round fired from a rifle-length barrel.) While I think there's more to the "game-taking" equation than just energy, keep in mind that out of a 10-inch barrel you're likely looking at a lot less energy being produced at 100 yards than 1000 foot-pounds. You might very well be pushing the limits of your round/ firearm combination at 75-100 yards.

I don't understand what you mean when you mention not having time to shoot a bolt gun? It seems when I read that part like you're hunting in a carnival shooting gallery. Aren't you doing your utmost to only take one shot at deer? Wouldn't a well-placed first shot, in a round that allows for some unforeseen circumstances be a better choice than a hasty first shot that was taken on the assumption that you'll have a quick follow up?

[HandGunner]

you guys need to look up these guns to understand them. you guys have to be me to understand why im capable of shooting handguns or any gun accurately. these ar 15 pistols have a buffer tube. they are not meant to be shot with full extended arms like shooting a glock. the buffer tube would rest againts my cheeck like a stock that does not reach my shoulder but reaches my face that i can rest my face on it. It is so that i can place a freaking full size rifle scope on it and shoot it like i would a rifle. like i said go look up on these guns and watch vids of ppl shooting them or at least vids with ppl holding them right, these type ar 15 pistols are not held like a glock or any other handgun, they can be but it defeats the true capabilities of it. its like carrying a compact rifle.

were i hunt a i can sit on a valley and shoot over 5 pples head at a deer out at 200+ yards with a bolt action. i would be lucky if i can even spot a deer at a distance, were i hunt its dense forest it not dispersed spaced out forest and it is definatley not flat land its south east MN valleys!

you guys keep thinking when i say handgun im talking about glocks and 1911's and trying to shoot handguns accurately and that all handguns are not accurate.

plus for bullets im not stupid i wold never shoot FMJ's at any thing! if i was to use a 223 id get the best expanders and the top rated expanding bullets in 223. something like barnes full copper expanders

[Jackpine Rob]

Aren't you glad you asked the question in the first place?

There are lots of guys who just aren't comfortable with anything new or different, and anything less than a super-duper magnum confuses them.

Its funny looking back at old, old articles about guns such as the Savage 250-3000. Back in the day, it was touted as a fine moose and elk cartridge, and company reps used it on African safaris, but nowadays folks would look at you like you were crazy if you tried that.

The debate about the .22 cal centerfires and big-game will rage on for a few more years, until we all tire of it.

[TooTallTom]

I think I understand now. A rifle is not legal in SE MN, correct? But a handgun in .223 might be. (I say "might be" because I really don't know what a CO would do if he saw you shooting a handgun in what is obviously a rifle caliber. I'm pretty curious about that, though.) I really don't think that a .223 fored from a pistol-length barrel is good for a longer effective range at deer than a shotgun with a rifled barrel. And I wouldn't be surprised to find that the shotgun actually has MORE effective range than .223 fired from a pistol-length barrel.

Also, despite your awesome pistol shooting abilities, I sincerely doubt that you're as accurate with a pistol balanced at your cheek as you would be with a full-length firearm balanced at your shoulder and cheek. That's nothing personal, I think that would be the case for ANY shooter. It's why the shooters in Olympic rifle events don't use pistols. (Well, that plus the rules. )

[HandGunner]

i just did a energy calc. the kel tec plr16 is advertised with a 9.2 inch barrel with muzzle velocity of 2600 fps, the RRA ar 15 pistol has a 10.5 inch barrel, no advertised muzzle velocity but i wuld assume its the same as the kel tec.

okay all done with a MV of 2600 fps

40 grain bullet gets 600.28 ft-lbs

45 grain bullet gets 675.32 ft-lbs

50 grain bullet gets 750.36 ft-lbs

55 grain bullet gets 825.39 ft-lbs

60 grain bullet gets 900.43 ft-lbs

okay now i did a 150 grain bullet as in a regular 308 round and since i got it in a 15 inch TC Encore pistol i would guess fps would decrease to 2100-2350 fps range and it comes out to being 1468.53 ft-lbs as the lowest and 1838.99 ft-lbs at the highest

highest is being double of the highest in 223 and lowest being about 500 more pounds than the highest in 223

now you guys can debate weather r not a 223 is any good at all as a round

[HandGunner]

I think I understand now. A rifle is not legal in SE MN, correct? But a handgun in .223 might be. (I say "might be" because I really don't know what a CO would do if he saw you shooting a handgun in what is obviously a rifle caliber. I'm pretty curious about that, though.) I really don't think that a .223 fored from a pistol-length barrel is good for a longer effective range at deer than a shotgun with a rifled barrel. And I wouldn't be surprised to find that the shotgun actually has MORE effective range than .223 fired from a pistol-length barrel.

Also, despite your awesome pistol shooting abilities, I sincerely doubt that you're as accurate with a pistol balanced at your cheek as you would be with a full-length firearm balanced at your shoulder and cheek. That's nothing personal, I think that would be the case for ANY shooter. It's why the shooters in Olympic rifle events don't use pistols. (Well, that plus the rules. )

i have emailed the dnr 2 years ago and they say yes as long as the firearms is a legal handgun it does not matter what type bullet it uses even if its a freaking 300 win mag. i kno i kno its rediculous why dont they just let us use rifles. and i was at bills gun shop and range holding and placing the bufer tube on my face like shooting a rifle and its unbelievable how good it fet. defenatley not as perfect as a rifle but just the feel and compactness of the gun and how well it would fit and be used witha full sized scope was incredible.

and another thing we use to have a benelli SBE one of the most accurate shottys known and with rifled barrel in all its a good 1-2k investment. ours had a MOA at 100 yards of 3 inches if your steady. thes Kel Tec is said to have a 4-2 inch MOA at 100 yards but its just from word of mouth but i have seen pics of actual groupings from the KEl tec and the smallest group was about 1 inch and a half. at 95 yards

[LightningBG]

But the question is: Why?

Is it just something different or what is the motivation?

I dont mean to doubt your abilities or the calibers effectiveness. I just haven't figured out why?

[TooTallTom]

Like I said before, I don't think that energy is the be-all, end-all of cartridge selection for hunting, but it is something to take note of. The general consensus seems to be that about 1000 foot-pounds (at a given distance, not just the muzzle) is the minimum for whitetails. By that criterion, your .223 is inadequate, but the .308 should be fine. I understand that the numbers you provided aren't based on real-world testing, but on load data and some supposition. If you do buy a .223 pistol with the intent of shooting it at deer, I'd encourage you to do a LOT of testing to check your numbers before ever taking it after live targets.

Did you mean that the Kel-Tec is supposed to have a 4.5-inch group at 100 yards? That's pretty big, and I wouldn't be comfortable shooting that gun in that caliber at deer. You mentioned being steady with the SBE, so is that 3" group at 100 yards shooting offhand? If so, I'd call that a good deer gun. Most guns will out-shoot most shooters in most situations. What are the real-world groups that you've seen with the Kel-Tec? Are those the "word of mouth" groups (that I was asking about earlier) that you talk about?

For what it's worth, minute-of-angle (MOA) is actually a unit of measurement, so it cannot vary from application to application (firearm to firearm in this case). One MOA is equivalent to 1 inch at 100 yards. So, at 50 yards, one MOA would be 0.5 inches. At 200 yards, one MOA is two inches. At 100 yards, 2 MOA is equal to two inches.

[Big A]

This entire question/thread has been been discussed... at length.. several times...

just do a search.

bottom line.

.223 works just fine. no problems. perfectly ethical. perfectly LEGAL. Place your shot well. Done deal.

everything else is just opinion after opinion. Some educated.. and unfortunately.. many UNeducated.

[TooTallTom]

That's the thing, Big A, I don't think that .223 works just fine OUT OF A PISTOL, which is what is being asked. I just don't think you can generate enough velocity out of a shorter barrel. I also don't think that the average hunter is a good enough and patient enough shot to do right by the targeted animal with a .223.

[HandGunner]

we are big handgun hunters. just a thing. my shotty (P.Beretta 1200 smoothbore) is just not 100 percent dependable. the grouping is questionable. this is why i always aim at center mass of the deer near the front were the vitals are. I have to admit i missed a doe at id say 20 yards away im high up in my stand a good 25 feet. steep angle shot. i missed. our TC Encore Pistol shuld be the first gun we own in a long time that we can actually know where were aiming.

but its my dads gun he will be using it. hes looking into the ar's ive mentioned for me. a gun that i can shoot accurately.

as for firing them my stand has a rail ofcourse. and shooting handguns ACCURATLEY i never shoot without a rest. I do not get buck fever, i get excited and jiggle a bit but when it comes down to actually getting ready for the shot im am as calm as can be, im a really relaxed guy.

like i said im not making 100-200 yard shots here most my deer come in at around right under my stand out to id say 60 yards being the furthest? im not good with distance they can be farther away but usually they would have had to pass behind me or be heading twards me whitch then id have the patience to wait. if they are going to run past me in the front broadside they'd be id say 40-60 yards? but then theres alot of brush whitchj then id just forget it and let em go.

its easy to say im just an averege hunter but if you knew me in person you would know that im just the type of ppl who learn fast and perform at higher levels in such short time, and im always trying to be the best!

[Abndoc]

Just curious. How old are you handgunner?

[HandGunner]

Im only 18... just leagal now for handgun hunting alone tho ive done it before, i was with my father during those times.

just did a run thru of a 44mag 240 grain bullet at 1400 fps it only has 1044.28 ft-lbs of energy.

dont let age place me in some type of group or labeling. Im not the averege 18 year old highschool student

who knoes... ill see what my dad thinks. he told me a story about one of my ucles who used a 223 in wisconsin got a doe with it yet the tracking was a 3mile trail, a deer to bleed enough for you to track 3 miles the next day is alot. when they got to were it seemed to have bedded down and died it seems as if someone already came and found it, gutted it and took the deer.

lets see what he thinks, its his money, or maybe instead see if he wants to buy another TC but a contender in a 30/30, he always said it would be nice to have one in 30/30 plus he likes the first gen. contenders

the reason he wants a semi auto for me is because were i sit deer may be running or fast walking, so far im lucky to get all my deer while they were just walking normally they dont stop much since the trails are more like escape routes into private land or out of private land, only one deer i almost shot was running but i saw that he was a spike and i already had one so i let him go. plus there can be multiple deer at once so a single shot pistol like our TC Encore is not idealy enough. 5 deer limit, were meat hunters, big families we eat alot.

[Abndoc]

My intent by asking your age wasn't to put you down, but more open the eyes of these guys who have years of experience to be able to relate more to your questions. Its not about age, but experience. You have to realize that sometimes when people ask questions we are not all on the same page with age, experience, knowledge and confidence. This is why this site is so great. We are learn from each other.

[TooTallTom]

HandGunner, if most of your shots are under about 60 yards, you might just consider something like an 870 with a fully-rifled barrel, shooting sabot slugs. Seriously. It'll be much easier to shoot, and as accurate as you'll need at that range. Plus, it'll have ample ability to kill deer. Keep in mind that a gun that shoots a four-inch group will shoot a two-inch group at 50 yards. (Remember the MOA thing.) That's definitely minute-of-deer. Your plan to shoot center top-to-bottom and towards the front is a good one. Ideally, you'll just follow the back of the front leg up to that spot on a broadside presentation, or shoot for the far shoulder on a quartering deer.

I'm glad to hear you admit freely that you missed a shot. In my experience (not that it's the most extensive ever, but it's worth something) it's almost never the equipment, it's the operator's error. And don't worry about getting shaky. If it wasn't exciting, there wouldn't be much reason to do it. Whatever "it" is.

One thing that will help you shoot handguns better is upper-body strength. Do pullups and pushups every day. You don't have to constantly set records or anything, but do concentrate on doing more than you did last week.

If you always hunt out of a specific stand, or the same stand all season, get some surveyor's stakes from a home store, and paint the dull ends with some orange spray paint. Then pace off distances (say every 20 yards) and put a stake in the ground as a guide to how far you're shooting. You could also use different colors so that you don't have to count how many stakes out a deer is.

If a deer is moving, but not rushed, you can often stop them by grunting or making a small noise. They'll look at you, but if you're already following them with your gun that's not an issue. You just want them to stop so you can pull the trigger. If they're moving because they're feeling very pressured, this probably won't work so well.

[HandGunner]

Im positive the reason i missed was not me but the gun. like i said the grouping from the gun is questionable. Im not the best guy to walk up and down valleys in SE MN my shotgun weighs me down. Thus the reason for handguns, plus like i said lots already were big handgunners.

i have shot a deer free handed no rest or support and how steady i held the shotty was amazing, i remember everything during the shot, i perform well under things like this were it matters. Im just those types, like military personel, gimme a random firearm some ammo and within an hour or so i can get really comfterble with it.

im actually really in shape right now, well not super in shape but in shape enough to be above the averege person. either way it dosnt do much when it comes to shooting guns alot.

my area is at the top of a small mountain i would call it. i face twards the private land and to the right is about 20-30 yards until you head down a steep hill twards a creek which then on the other side of the creek is private land. to the left i have about 20-40 yards of flat and slightly downward slope ground until you start headding down the steep hill down into the state forest to the other creek that runs thru the public land. in the front of me theres a good 100 yards of land but alot of trees and brush and further on you reach private land. behind me is a good 200 yards were then my dad sits on the left side on the steep hill watching for deer that creep around me into public land. my dads spot is a back up so if theres a deer not going twards me he can get em but if a deer is further up on the mountain he wont see it which then it would most likely be heading twards me. If i was to miss a oncoming deer it would likley run past my dad. after that 200 yards it starts to go down into public land wich then reaches the trails we travel on back to camp. my spot is one of the main escape routes or travel routes for deer to get in and out of private or public land, if the landowners are scaring deer they will be heading out of private into public if were scaring them they run from behid me to the front of me into the private land. and when theres no pressure the public land is more the playground and the private land is the food source

[TooTallTom]

I guess I'll have to take your word for it. Doing the math, though, the gun would have had to have been off by about 45 inches at 100 yards to cleanly miss the deer (assuming a clean miss when aiming at the center of an 18-inch target at 20 yards). And if you shot any other deer without re-sighting the gun, it would have had to have been off that far for just that shot.

As far as being more fit not helping shooting, USA Shooting disagrees with you. Read the third rifle tip: http://www.usashooting.com/tips.php

It sounds like you have a pretty great place to sit and look for deer. I hunt a cut in a shrubby swamp. There is a field east of me that I can see out on, as well a smaller cut to the north-northeast that is fairly dry. But it's still exciting, because you just never know when you're going to see or hear something.

[HandGunner]

well i mean my physicality does help but not all of it, before i try to shoot any gun i make sure i can hold it and handle the weight, also do controlled dry fires and work on a form that will work with me.

some guns shoot weird. my shotty i sight in at 100 yards. it hits low left and sometimes dead on horrizontily but high, or to the right. i doubt it would be the scope. Im shooting rifled slugs. i can safley say the grouping is like a smiley face hitting a standard sighting in target they have at the range, seems to be a bit smaller or the same size as a deers body. id say the smiley face grouping size is a good 6-9 inch? maybe even 11?

i run out of bullets b4 i can get a true idea of were its most commonly hitting.

my last deer of the season id say was a 80 yard no rest shot that i was telling you guys about, my dad said its amazing that the shottys taken 3 deer for me already knowing that its hard to say how accurate it is.

[TooTallTom]

Knowing about proper sight alignment and having good form, as well as being able to seperate muscle groups (with pistols especially) in order to move only your trigger finger while shooting are all really important. Two of those three are also more easily done when you're in better condition. Being in better condition has benefits beyond better form and muscle control to boot.

If your shotgun is patterning 11" at 100 yards, it will shoot 2.2" groups at 20 yards. That's tight enough to call it "on" for deer hunting. But I can see why you'd like to improve your odds. You might look into a Striker (made by Savage). That's a bolt-action pistol that comes in a few different calibers, including .308. They're out of production now, but you can find them.