pipeless vent

[opsirc]

was in a lumber store today and they had a new vent system for sinks that was pipeless. it operated on a vaccum valve that opened when water was flowing down the pipe and shut when no water was flowing. it claimes that it does not allow sewer gases to come thru. has anyone seen these or have any experience with them?

thanks

O

[krinkle]

Been around for ever. Another prime example of the hardware store selling building products that do not meet code in mn. I for one am happy they sell them. We have made a lot of money pulling these out and adding a vent pipe. What most likely would of been a simple job in the 1st place can easily turn into a costly remodel.

[Redlantern]

Hey Krinkle, I believe they have been approved for use, at least in Minneapolis, if the inspector agrees that there is no reasonable alternative. Seems silly to me to allow this nasty little contraption and then talk about requiring every floor drain to be vented.

Opsirc, these little devices, which work great on paper, don't always work. And when they do, your venting sewer gas into your wall or cabinetry. The moisture alone is bad but combine it with sewer gas and it's just gets worse. Not to mention a device that opens and closes like this is supposed to do, will eventually fail. Either in the open position, so now you are getting a lot of humidity into your wall or cabinet or closed, so it doesn't vent, causing your trap to possibly get siphoned dry, givning you sewer gas and cockroaches in your home.

Nope, I'm no fan of these things. I'd never install one myself.

[Gus]

You guys that say you would never use one, how would you vent an island sink? My understanding is they do meet code, and need to be used in such an application. I could always be wrong....wont' be the first time, won't be the last.

[Redlantern]

Gus, an island sink gets vented using an island vent. Tough to explain, much easier and simpler to view a schematic of it. It's rather simple to do. I have yet to run into a situation where I could not figure out a way to vent a fixture properly. It's drawn out quite clearly in the illustrated section of the Minnesota Plumbing codebook.

[MNice]

air admittance valves are not allowed in MN at the present time. There is some legal action by the manufacture and the Plumbing board, so who knows what the future will hold.

[Surface Tension]

For an island sink you'd use a loop vent.

Sam, If this is for your new construction and even though you'd get away with it I'd not use the AAV.

[MNice]

google "MN plumbing code", the entire code book is on line in a pdf format.

[Gus]

Boot leather tastes good every now and then. Guess my source is full of it.

[FlagsDown]

Hey Krinkle, I believe they have been approved for use, at least in Minneapolis, if the inspector agrees that there is no reasonable alternative.

Not allowed in Minneapolis-it's a required repair on a truth in housing time of sale evaluation.

[Redlantern]

Thanks Flagsdown. Been a while since I was shacking in Minneapolis. I think the last remodel I did there was around six years ago. Like I said, never used one but thought I had heard that if I was too stupid to find a way of venting a fixture they'd let me use one. Glad to hear they are requiring these things to be fixed before passing the home off to someone else.

[krinkle]

I wish every home depot, lowes and manards would put them things on sale in every store in the metro area. Its a great little project listed on the truth in housing when a home goes up for sale. Just like a "S" trap under a sink. Its a nice red flag for the inspectors and usually gets them looking at the rest of the homes plumbing a little closer to see what else they can find. Tear the cabinets off the walls, open up the walls, open up the ceiling. Some of these can get very involved. But what the heck. At least the home owner saved $30 up front.

I have heard rumors for a long time that these are legal in mn. Even fired one of our new hires over it. No licensed plumber worth his salt should ever think one of these is all rite to install.

I think what happens is a rep some where tells the store they are selling to that these are good to go. Store tells its employees the same thing. Employees tell the unsuspecting customers and out the door the vent goes. See how the licensed plumber is not involved in this scenario.

If you are going to pick up a mechanical vent you might as well grab a few S traps, a couple of those accordion trap connectors and some all purpose pipe cement. Heck throw some duct tape in there to. Do it up good. The DIY center will be happy to sell all of this to you.

Island vents and loop vents are 2 separate ways of venting fixtures.

Most of this is tongue in cheek guys. Plumbers will sit around and laugh for ever about the stuff we run into out in the field and who told who why it was all rite to put it in that way.

[Redlantern]

Well said, Krinkle.

[jentz]

These vents are approved for mobile homes,thats where they started years ago.Mobiles or trailor homes have a whole section of their own in code books.The reason their on shelf at box stores!!

Just like anything else some people take a easy route and illegally install them in the unapproved areas.

[schmoe147]

Classic forum here. Just makes me laugh. JUNK JUNK JUNK. Do it right or dont do it at all

[MNice]

Keep in mind, there are listed "air admittance valves" that are 100% legal in almost every other state in the union. One of the major reasons they are not legal here is the plumbing code here is very archaic, much of it has not changes since it's inception in, I think, 1933. Heck, it dang near took an act of congress to get PEX piping allowed here, and now it's used in about 90% or better of all new construction that I see. Just because the State plumbing code does not allow it, does not make it a bad product.

[Redlantern]

MnNice, you gota be kidding, right?

[MNice]

No, if it's a listed product and have been used in 49 States without problems, why not? People are worried that the listing does allow a some leakage, no different than a vent limiter on a maxitrol gas regulator. Just like the waterless urinals, the plumbing board in in the process of approving those right now after they have been "outlawed" in MN for years, mainly due to the channel 4 news hounding DOLI. Our plumbing code is to influenced by labor IMHO. I'm a master plumber and have some first hand knowledge of the plumbing board. I would encourage any plumber to attend one of the meetings if possible, its all on the DOLI HSOforum.

[Redlantern]

There is a difference between a small amount of gas getting blown off to atmosphere from a regulator and the air admitance valve getting stuck in the open position. Do you recall the trouble with Polybutylene quite a few years ago? I have a feeling that Pex is going to be the same way. Same for Propress.

And just because the Minnesota Plumbing Code does allow it doesn't make it a quality product.

[Fish Slayer]

Totally agreen with you Redlantern.

[Archerysniper]

There is a difference between a small amount of gas getting blown off to atmosphere from a regulator and the air admitance valve getting stuck in the open position. Do you recall the trouble with Polybutylene quite a few years ago? I have a feeling that Pex is going to be the same way. Same for Propress.

And just because the Minnesota Plumbing Code does allow it doesn't make it a quality product.

Come on red now your trying to take away my service work. It's fun going in and replacing the cpvc and pvc water lines when they start to leak, can't wait for the propress to start going bad then I will be really busy.

[Back2Dakota]

Come on red now your trying to take away my service work. It's fun going in and replacing the cpvc and pvc water lines when they start to leak, can't wait for the propress to start going bad then I will be really busy.

[MNice]

I the jurisdiction I work in, we have CVPC in homes for 15+ years, no problems. If you remember the polybutylene pipe, keep in mind, it is still in the state plumbing code, and can still be used. Most of the polyb problems was from bad installations, not a bad product, as is the case for many item's. I assume you have repaired copper that leaked quite a few years after installation, I know I have. There will always be leaks, no matter what the material. If you are fixing PVC water lines, that material is only approved for service lines, not distribution. I remember when plastic DWV was the new thing, and nobody in the plumbing industry wanted that either.

Remember, all air admittance valves are not listed, just a few. google studor valve, that is one of the most common. Now I will not permit anybody to install them, but I would like our plumbing code to get more current with materials and new products. Basically, we need one of the national codes, not a state code.

[frazwood]

This is a very entertaining and educational thread. Thanks guys!!

[Redlantern]

MnNice, how would a national code be better than a state code. I'm not being facetious or trying to start an arguement, I'd just like to know why you feel this way. Would they have any variances due to different climates? Mainly thinking about the freezing temps we get here but not so much of a problem in Florida. Sizing rain leaders is going to be different here than it would be in a dry state such as Nevada.

The polybutylene problem that I was referring to was , from my understanding, not so much installation error but from using three different types of materials to make a joint. Different expansion rates and then they eventually failed. Never worked with it myself, that was before my time in the trade.