Radio Collared Bears

[jkcmj]

I've always wanted a 44 lever. I should get my bear permit next year(I hope), so maybe I will look into it before then.

[Muthagoose]

jkcmj I have one in excellent condition that I have taken a couple bears so when your ready let me know. Ive moved up to the 45-70 on my encore just for the 300g hollow point and it DID the job this year..

[jkcmj]

Ah thanks goose, I like a gun with a little positive history behind it! Let me know the price and maybe send a pic.

Thanks, [email protected] since the PM system on here seems to be disabled.

[Muthagoose]

Email sent.

[bwana_d]

I have been on the fence with this one for a while now. I have done some digging and I have learned a lot about bears and some things I did not want to know about the research.

At first I was willing to support making collared bears illegal to shoot, as this years debate continued and I observed the tactics used by the North American Bear Center (NABC) with the press I was no longer willing to support making it illegal. At this point I could only support making it illegal if restrictions were put on the research (maybe they already exist) – location, numbers, duration, requirements to share data, types of interactions with the bears, etc.

I now have lots of questions I would like to get answered so I can form recommendations accordingly. I also have concerns that would need to be covered as well.

Some of the questions I have at this point include:

• Does anyone from the DNR oversee the researchers, their methods, approve their objectives, etc.?
• Are any of the objectives in the studies geared towards improving the size of the animal or number of animals – similar to what is done for deer?
• Is there a limit to the number of bears that are collared?
• How many bear studies are being done and by who?
• How many bears are collared for each study?
• Are the collaring of bears and the studies geographically disperse?
• What are the requirements get a permit to collar the bears, follow the bears around charge people $1500 to have up close and personal experiences with them?
• Who will be responsible if there is ever a mishap with a collared bear? There researchers, the state, do they have appropriate insurance?
• Where does the funding come from that oversees the researchers?

Some of the concerns I have this point include:

• That the objectives of bear research studies are being manipulated to justify not including bear mortality.
• Some of the bears that have been collared are repeatedly located by researchers to provide interaction with “students” that have paid $1500 to have the opportunity to get up close and personal with bears.
• Where will the protection end? The naming of bears with collars has humanized them to a point where they are no longer considered a wild animal and fair game. Currently, hunters who did something legal are being villains for shooting collared bears, what is going to happen when a hunter shoots an un-collared bear that is the off spring of a collared bear and the researchers can tie them together. The NABC has posted their opinion that the bears that interact with the collared bears are valuable but question the ethics of shooting those un-collared bears that are close to their property line
• That there is little oversight and rules related to the interaction of researchers and wild animals by the DNR.
• That the collared bears seemed to be reserved for the researchers, unless I want to pay money to the researchers to “introduce me to those bears.”
• That the collared bears seemed to be reserved for the researchers, unless I want to pay money to the researchers to “introduce me to those bears.”

Full disclosure - I am a bear hunter because they taste good and have been for 11 years, my 15 year old son, first time bear hunter, shot his first bear this year with a bow. We do are own baiting and hunt on public land.

[Muthagoose]

Have any of you looked at what they charge to do the 4 days of bear research with the experts..

THE COST OF THE BEARS STUDY COURSE HAS INCREASED TO $2000.00 FOR 2011)

For that money you get to stay at the house on Trygg rd and see all the bears up close they feed ya and put ya up..

They do 8 people at a time...NICE gig..

Its not bad enough that we have to allow them the control of "Our" bear as they put it but now I clearly see WHY they are fighting so hard to keep the TAME bears....If you look at the list opf bears you can expect to see you bet its the collared ones that have been drawn over from the park to the cabin on Trygg for the Payolla time...

....What a nice gig..

This totaly explains thing to me..ITs nothing more than a scamm and prostitution of wildlife... Dont you think this has gone on long enough??

[bogwalker]

When someone shoots a collared bear do they just cut the collar off with a knife and drop it off somewhere?

[jkcmj]

I am going to answer to the best of my knowledge on all your questions. Thanks for the post.

I have been on the fence with this one for a while now. I have done some digging and I have learned a lot about bears and some things I did not want to know about the research.

At first I was willing to support making collared bears illegal to shoot, as this years debate continued and I observed the tactics used by the North American Bear Center (NABC) with the press I was no longer willing to support making it illegal. At this point I could only support making it illegal if restrictions were put on the research (maybe they already exist) – location, numbers, duration, requirements to share data, types of interactions with the bears, etc.

I now have lots of questions I would like to get answered so I can form recommendations accordingly. I also have concerns that would need to be covered as well.

Some of the questions I have at this point include:

• Does anyone from the DNR oversee the researchers, their methods, approve their objectives, etc.?

  DNR is charged with permit oversite, but little or no enforcement has been done on this since they do have political popularity muscle behind them. Several legislators have already contacted WRI asking if they can help with legislation. Putting little hope bear in a kennel was pocession of big game without a liscense, among other violations of the law. They have not been charged, even though this is not permitted under the research permit. The reporting requirments of the permit also go largely ignored, but again, no penalty ever on this.

• Are any of the objectives in the studies geared towards improving the size of the animal or number of animals – similar to what is done for deer?

  Yes and no. The study does look at size difference with supplemental feeding, but it is not a focus of the research per say. Yearlings are usually between 175 and 200 live weight just prior to hibernation, which is much larger than the population at large. This is the average we have harvested anyway in the area. The main focus of the research is growing bear numbers, by increasing the social carrying capacity of the areas bears live. in other words they want people to let bears live around them, even if it makes them a little uncomfortable. Toward this end, they experiment with diversionary feeding over many years to see if people have less conflict with bears breaking into homes etc in the vicinity. This obviously increases bear numbers for hunting as well.

• Is there a limit to the number of bears that are collared?

  No limit.

• How many bear studies are being done and by who?

  DNR(Dave G.) is studying about twice as many as Rogers(30 +). Rogers currently is reporting that he has 13 bears collared.

• How many bears are collared for each study?

  see above.

• Are the collaring of bears and the studies geographically disperse?

  Rogers are all in the same township, but do travel widely outside that area at times. Townships are huge with many land owners, hunters, etc with viable interests in the bear management. The DNR studies I am unfamiliar with.

• What are the requirements get a permit to collar the bears, follow the bears around charge people $1500 to have up close and personal experiences with them?

  You must demonstrate a value to the public, or bears for the research application. Rogers has certainly done both. The money is used for further research supposedly. This is all mandatory reporting to the IRS, so likely fairly well documented. Nobody getting rich off of it, except for the BBC on the advertising and video sales for the documentaries.

• Who will be responsible if there is ever a mishap with a collared bear? There researchers, the state, do they have appropriate insurance?

  Good questions. I have no answers on those.

• Where does the funding come from that oversees the researchers?

There is no funding, so it is not done.

Some of the concerns I have this point include:

• That the objectives of bear research studies are being manipulated to justify not including bear mortality.

  research goals are primarily to educate the public on bears to increase social carrying capacity. Mortality only effects the ability to film bears in the wild if certain bears are killed.

• Some of the bears that have been collared are repeatedly located by researchers to provide interaction with “students” that have paid $1500 to have the opportunity to get up close and personal with bears.

  All collared study bears endure repeated human contact. That is the only way to keep them tame enough to change batteries in the GPS collars and allow research without drugs.

• Where will the protection end? The naming of bears with collars has humanized them to a point where they are no longer considered a wild animal and fair game. Currently, hunters who did something legal are being villains for shooting collared bears, what is going to happen when a hunter shoots an un-collared bear that is the off spring of a collared bear and the researchers can tie them together. The NABC has posted their opinion that the bears that interact with the collared bears are valuable but question the ethics of shooting those un-collared bears that are close to their property line

  We have killed many offspring bears and have been villified only recently for BBC ratings. This is a huge problem. Dale killed opening day in the documentary was not collared. Mickey killed 2 days later should not have been collared and was collared for the sole purpose of protecting him. Same with Cal, who still wears a collar today and has moved to Duluth area. It will be removed when he goes to den this winter. Cal is a prime example of why they cannot use yearling males as viable study subjects and they therefore should be off limits.

[jkcmj]

Sorry for replying within the quotes, I didn't realize it would come out that way and am to lazy to correct it!

For a little background for those who didn't see the documentary, the three yearling male bears, two of which were killed in the 2nd half of the documentary, Dale, brother Mickey, and Cal were touted as "huge" losses to the research. this was a lie for ratings purposes.

Yearlings are unpredictable in the woods and so accompanying them for study is nearly impossible. Yearling male bears usually disperse great distances after family breakup making them useless to the study(Cal headed down near Duluth). The 3 bears were likely collared for two reasons. One to protect them for the season, and two to increase the odds of a study bear dying during filming for the documentary. They yearling males are usually the 1st to get killed on hunters baits. It may be that all of this was aimed at putting pressure on the legislature or DNR commish to put protection on the collared bears, because, as Lynn Rogers puts it, he is to old to start over and may never find this cooperative a bears in the remainder of his lifetime. Lynn is 70 years old?

So, the available options are;

1. Lynn convinces the legislature, DNR commish, and public to support all of his demands by using pressure brought by his fans on Facebook. These bear fans from all over the world are allowed to manipulate and control hunting laws here in MN, and like gun control wackos, they keep demanding once they get there way the 1st time.

2. Repay Lynn for supporting bear hunters in the past by protecting lets say 2 or 3 bears of his choosing, and limiting the permit to that to help him continue his mission while he's able. The man is over 70 years old and won't be here forever so humor him. This may seem OK, but let's face it, with the NABC and a well funded WRI and an exhaustless supply of tree hugger volunteers, it may get much worse once someone else is at the controls.

3. Say no Lynn you have no right to ask for more, and allow things to stay as they are. Here is where the assaults using BBC documentaries are allowed to continue unabaited until he can make another try at the legislature.

4. Punish Lynn's bad behaviour of late by pulling his permit or scaling it back drastically and demand severe oversight, paid for by researchers money, to be sure he complies with new restrictions. Kick the BBC out of the area for trying to hurt the hunting community, and thus, the State of MN which allowed them to profit handsomely off of liberal access to our bears.

[Muthagoose]

Not here to make friends.

Ive never looked at the BIG picture.

This whole deal just rolled up and they are doing NOTHING protecting the show bears that migrate to the park once hunting starts. They use the park as their pasture and then get a whole bunch of missinformed,sypathetic emotional people to play into the warm and fuzzy uprising by posting how they have so much time into working with these bears Well so does the circus and thats all this is.They would get mad if someone shot their elephants...

Seeing that they bring all these "donating" assistants with them to do the so called research is proably the best I have ever seen.Talk about exposing the bears to more and more people and making them less and less afraid..

VERY Impressive

Get a hoard of people to do your fighting on the net while you set on a nest egg and do your dog and pony show..

In the full extent of this so called research and its been years just what breakthroughs have the discovered that say for instance Ben Kilham hasn't brought forth?? Nothing really.

What have we seen by reading IE "living in bear country" and EVERY state DNR and Wildlife advisement to NOT feed bears.

The bears trust Lynn after all these years so does sigfreid and roy animals untill.. Hummmmmm

Why have such close study?

So they can lead the trained animals back with food and we all know a bear is going to stay where foods easy to get.

Then they have people pay them to walk with the pimps ooops I mean researchers..

NO this HAS to stop.

Its not just dont shoot collared bears its DONT SHOOT the tame exhibit animals.. We only need the state DNR to do study, they are not building a legacy of animal training.

Say what you want BUT in the wild things are to be WILD these are animals he should have to PAY us for if he is to continue.....He has damaged and altered wildlife..

They should have to pay restitution for damages any time one of these animals even snarls at a camper or nips at one. No one knows how many bears they have impacted or CULLED for not being trainable...

You post anything that could lead one of their cult off and they delete it.Sweet gig the thing that ticks me off is Im not running it..

[kelly-p]

This is the fee from 2010. I think the "deductible" part is interesting. If I understand it right isn't that then tax free for both the giver and receiver?

"Course Fee: $1500 ($1400 tax deductible). The fee includes course materials, certificate of completion, a receipt for the tax-deductible portion of the fee, and lodging and meals at Northwoods Research Center. The fee goes to the nonprofit (501©(3)) Wildlife Research Institute. The deductible $1400 is the portion beyond actual expenses and is considered a donation to further our research and education program.

[jkcmj]

Goose, I think that alot of them on FB have us blocked anyway, so they never see our posts in the 1st place.

Foolish on their part, you know the old addage, keep your friends close, and your enemies closer!

[bogwalker]

I have been doing independent Black Bear research for years. The only way I will ever make money from my research is if I write a book on the subject. It is too bad there are people out there who claim to be doing legitimate research while they are exploiting the very animals they claim to care about. The idea that the DNR seems to be allowing this exploitation to continue is sickening.

[jkcmj]

In all honesty, making money is what the DNR is looking for. Fees, taxes, etc for land aquasition, research, trucks, 4 wheelers, salaries, etc.

The "state" or DNR are always going to look at the money trail, just like Lynn Rogers does.

Lynn has considerable assets to survive the rest of his days in relative comfort so long as he does not get expensive habits all of the sudden. He has been pretty frugal for a couple decades now, so I imagine he doesn't need to worry about making money off the research. Now,others, investing major time in the effort, may wish or need to get paid to stay on the job, but Lynn has his savings and state pension(I assume), so does not collect monies off the project.

Lynn is obviously going to be worried about paying off the debt for the bear center, as that is his life savings at risk. I am sure he is starting to feel relieved on that subject after the success of the fund raising as of late.

The DNR is working their bear research in tandem with Medtronics with implants etc that will some day, they hope, lead to massive profits for the company and others involved with the medical research. Does that money trail make anyone sick?

Lynn has invested and risked everything for his bear education campaign over the years, and instead of vacationing in Florida, reaps his rewards in the spotlight of his recent success. I think it is his legacy(the bear center), and perhaps the well being of bear populations that now concern him more than being a fair and unbiased researcher.

Unfortunetly, he has put all of that well ahead of hunters or the rights of hunters and property owners, and that is where he and I have developed a disagreement. What he has done of late with the BBC, Lilly fans, and the villifying of hunters in the media is what makes me sick and angry.

[Muthagoose]

Jk Your totaly right about keeping them close BUT Im sure there are many who have not put the 2 together and its time..He already has contacted legislators and we need eyes opened here..

I have to agree with ya JK on the implants I didnt like watching the 3D Tv when they put implants inside bluebills..Thats like making a BORG.....

However the state don't react like the Org does when you kill one of their /OUR bears..

The bad apple shot an exhibit animal face it.....

I love the people are working hard line so is the dairy farmer,cattle and sheep rancher protecting his heard from the wolves,yotes and thieves...

[jkcmj]

I have been doing independent Black Bear research for years. The only way I will ever make money from my research is if I write a book on the subject. It is too bad there are people out there who claim to be doing legitimate research while they are exploiting the very animals they claim to care about. The idea that the DNR seems to be allowing this exploitation to continue is sickening.

Excellent! What kind of research have you been doing Bogwalker?

I do some myself, but mine has been largely self centered around my bait stations and what attracts the most bears! I have also experimented in patience on smaller bears to see if bigger bears would show up later? Some researcher error on the second theory over the years has been screwing my study results considerably!

[bogwalker]

Years ago I studied mature Whitetail bucks. That eventually led to mature Black Bear boars. My studies have been centered in North central MN. What really caught my attention is the fact that I could not find anyone who did research on Black Bears with emphasis on mature boars. They have little in common with sows and young boars and are seldom seen by man.

[kintohunters]

Wow. It's been interesting to read your thread. I am a Lily Fan, have followed the bears since before Hope was born. Here's something you need to know. Lynn and Sue really did not do much to get those funds raised. The fans pretty much did it themselves. If you take time to look into the fans' pages you'll find the most "rabid" ones are older women with not much of a life. Being Lily fans has given them incredible power (all those votes) and has been an emotional outlet for their mothering needs. As a consequence, there's not a ton of rational thinkers over there. A few (but even the rational ones are mostly earthy types who love bears too much for my liking). Therefore, you won't get very far trying to reason with these folks. I have no problem with bear hunting (though I'd have a tough time doing it). My inlaws are huge hunters. My daughters love the bear rug! So there's a few of us that enjoy reading about the bears who do so with a bit of a jaundiced eye about the whole organization. I also looked into Lynn's background early on (before I donated anything). I can't tell if he's just really committed to bears or he's as sly as they come and manipulating the crowd. I've had indications of both. By the way, I think he only wants to make shooting radio collared bears illegal in one county, the one where they follow the bears. Also, some of the questions you all posed on here about the research are answered on the WRI and NABC www sites. Lynn formerly worked for DNR before the non amicably parted ways. Since then he hasn't done much journal publishing. Maybe he figures that he can accomplish more by educating the public than by writing for other researchers.

[jkcmj]

Has anyone been over to the Lilly thread lately? Current fund raiser for a placement in the bear study course with Lynn Rogers is $4100.00. Better get your checkbook out quick the auction ends soon.

.Josephine O'Ryan What an excellent auction! A guaranteed place in the 2011 Bear Study Course is priceless!! The high bid so far is $4000! With 100,000 Lily fans, there must be someone willing to bid higher! Come on folks! There is plenty of time to get your bid in before this ends!

16 hours ago · Report.Mary Patri Auldrich $4,000.0 do I hear 4,100.00 anywhere?

16 hours ago · Report.Mary Vespia How exciting it would be to see that $4100.00 bid! ♥

[Muthagoose]

Id bid but I can drive up to Tygg rd anytime. Beside all that I heard the circus is coming to town and I can see the Tame trained bears there for a LOT less and not have to deal with the huggers.,...

Heres a map link for those interested

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?q=trygg+rd+Ely&mkt=en-US&FORM=BYFD

Once you look at the map its only a short walk for them to LURE the bears back to the WRI animal exhibit and get them ready for the next $100,000 +++ season and exsposure to another 80 + new people paying to be with them as they do research this next year. HOW can that NOT be humanizing them????? IO thought that what the NABC was for..HUMMMMM

Ya know to me its dont sound like bear research it sounds like MARKET research... I really am seriously thinking since they hand out research permits to just anyone thats stacking up double tax deductable cash that it might be time.. Anyone Boar,Bog, JK ya want to join up and see about doing tours.. Being JK has the background and previous time in we could let him be the ringleader...HUMMMMMM????????LOL

[Boar]

I'm in, dont know what youre doing but i'm in, do we get money? I need a double ladder for me an my daughter so we can do our own research of:

This littel bear was to small:

This bear was to big to drag outa the river bottom:

This bear was name zippy, cause were gonna grind it into hamberger an stuff it into zip lock bags:

This bear has second year cubs, an dad cant shoot a mommy bear with cubs so we let a huge boar run off the cubs to bring her into estrus again an grind her up into hamberger an stuff her into zip lock bags or the boar:

This bear was named star cause when I feast off the succulant flesh I almost see stars. Almost.

This bear was so cute an cuddley, we decided to have him stuffed on our wall:

Where do we send our research data to?

To much? I could go on.

Research is good but huminizing bears is bad, can anyone say Timothy Tredwell without shaking his head in disgust.

[jkcmj]

Hey, goose, no need to have to start from scratch! Last I was up on tryg they had a lot for sale. We could kill a couple weekends building our own double decker research center right next door. Maybe a grand to pet one Could start feeding them over to our side about mid August...

Holy sh#t! I never added up the total for the bear course before! Iteresting...

[Muthagoose]

I have AWESOME lines for bait er I mean food source..

Aint it awesome I wish I made that kinda ching from only ONE site and only a few days a week. I can really see how having 8 people with me when I am studying apex omnivour. All they are is big cuddly tailess racoons.

Who ocassionally feed on people like Donna Munson.

Altho it really helps the study when we get to train then at the DEN with the sow because she allows me to do somthing NO OTHER ANIMAL would dare to do. I can see how that would help anyone understand the real mechanics of a wild animal...

Its also dang handy for increasing the # of FREE exhibit animals we can draw with.

Willing to bet that in only a couple day we can draw them to our site we can start with product donations from a couple scent companies. Add the pile of doughnuts,Fresh pool of fryer grease and candy donations I bet we could pull them all off him in just days..

We could "discourage" the BAD bears and make sure they dont come back.. Then we could supply our guests with bear products to enjoy during their stay..LOL

We want only select trainable genetics in our study also.

I really think this could work...It did for them..

UNLIKE the other guy LETS put MONSTER no tresspass signs up around it.

[HooknHorns]

Treadwell didn't have a gun. Ill humanize them as long as I can eat them. Is that how this research is going to go. Well I can log the data like shot placement, distance they run and and save the best for last, the taste test.

[Boar]

Can I be in charge of advertising an promotions, Donate 1000.00 an recieve a bear sippy cup that bubbels an purrs like a cat when ya drink outa it. Or a Black bear action doll with authentic kungfoo bite. Or how about barny the bear stuffed bear that sits at a bait pile an sings "I love bait,Give me more, pull the trigger I'm a boone an crockett boar" Wow I shoulda went to work to day. I know, I'm twisted. I walk on a 2x4, dont know what side I'm going off on. Boar