2003 Chevy Silverado and TP auto service

[muddpuppy]

OK, so I brought my truck in for rotate and balance (It's free with my tire purchace). The truck is also slightly out of alignment. I ask for them to check the alignment and adjust accordinly. A couple hours later I get a call saing that my PITMAN and IDLER arm are severly damaged. I asked for them to put a quote together and I would be in the next morning. I got the call at like 745pm. The next morning I talk to the manager he say your good to go. I asked what about the alignment issues? he says I don't know lets see. Oh your PITMAN and IDLER arms are severly damaged. We couldn't do the alignment. we can fix for almost $900. I said wow and walked with keys in hand.

I just put the truck up on stands crawled under to take a look see... The grease was not disturbed. They didn't wipe away or add grease to any of the joints. I have to grab the stearing linkage bar like I am doing bench press wheights and the only movement I get is if I twist the bar back and forth. I must say I am applying a lot of pressure to get it to move. Everything is fairly tight for 109,000 miles.

Also I can get both parts and the proper toolsto complete this myself for under$200. I don't get where they can justify their prices?

Am I missing something? I have done tirods and some other front end suspension work before fairly straight forward stuff, but I am no pro so I thought I would get your opinions.

Thank you and sorry for the long post.

[DUCKAHOLIC]

sounds like a all so often case of a mechanics shop thinking you dont know what your talking about and planning on making a killing off doing nothing... ive seen it done sooo many times at a small engine repair shop i use to work it which led to my resignment its just so wrong i cant comprehend it.. just what it sounds like to me my 2 cents

[Jeremy airjer W]

You need to have the wheels off the ground and push pull them at the 9 and 3 o'clock position to check the integrity of the pitman and idler arm, much like you where checking a tie rod end. More often than not they are sloppy. There is an acceptable tolerance of slop that is acceptable.

Quote:

Also I can get both parts and the proper tools to complete this myself for under$200. I don't get where they can justify their prices?

I can get a pound of hamburger for $3.50, where does the restaurant down the street justify $8.00? I was a hooters and bought three beers for $22, I can get a case for $16. I can buy a hot dog at the dome for $5 or I can get 60 of them at the grocery store for the same price. I could have hired an electrician, a plumber, and a general contractor to remodel my bathroom for about $10,000 or I just did it myself for about $3,000.

The point is they are a business like any other business. Your paying for service, convenience, and amenities. If they sell the parts for what they buy them for and install them for free they won't be in business long. You more than likely will save money doing just about anything yourself.

On a side note, we have seen more than one vehicle come from a certain business that may or may not have been mentioned, that have received estimates for front end parts that we couldn't find anything wrong with! But like I mentioned before there is a lot of opinion in the automotive business. Bring your truck for service to 5 different shops and I doubt the estimates would be the same for at least 3 out of the five.

[muddpuppy]

airjer, I understand the cost of conveinance etc. and am more than willing to pay a reasonable amount for it. What i was trying to get at and I didn't break it down. Was the 4x actual cost of the parts. I asume they are getting a better cost then I am as well. So this could be like 5x their cost. Then 3.5 hours labor? All while they could not explain how they checked and how far the alignment was.

YES this was a rant. But I am also wondering as most stuff is either under waranty or I do it my self. Is this the norm, I would guess if they hooked this up to the alignmet machine they should be abble to say you have this much play and to resolve this needs to be done?

[muddpuppy]

I also had the front wheels off the ground when I checked both with the weels on and off the truck. The rims are pealing I had to cut off the iner peallings of the rims to stop the clicking

[DTro]

At one time, I had a roommate who worked for a certain big chain famous for a place to go to get tires.

Anyways, I happened to be around one day when they had their "morning chat" with the manager.

The whole meeting was about how it was in their best interest to "find" things while doing their 21 pt inspection. "The more things we find, the happier this place will be". He didn't come right out and say fabricate problems, but he no doubt encouraged pushing marginal repairs.

In the end, it can never hurt to replace old things with new , but an honest trustworthy mechanic to me is like gold and if it costs a bit more or takes a bit longer, it's still worth it to me.

[Jeremy airjer W]

Believe me I'm not defending them, just the automotive business (or any business) in general.

I think there are 2 pieces to the idler arm on that one. I just looked them up and using premium parts for all three pieces that they may have quoted and came up with about $300 retail. I could spends a couple hours on the phone/net and probable find them all for under a $100. I can tell you from personal experience that the less expensive parts have not worked out for me in the past and will likely be in worse condition in a short period of time than your current parts are in now.

As far as labor I don't have the numbers in front of me but sometimes the Pitman arm can be rather labor intensive as the steering gear needs to be moved to allow clearance for the puller. If you lucky the pitman arm will come off with just the puller. I couldn't tell you how many steering gears come into the shop carry in to have the pitman arms heated up and removed and even then it can take 20 to 30 minutes of heating, pressing, and banging to get them off.

[Jeremy airjer W]

The whole meeting was about how it was in their best interest to "find" things while doing their 21 pt inspection. "The more things we find, the happier this place will be". He didn't come right out and say fabricate problems, but he no doubt encouraged pushing marginal repairs.

I told my sister in law to have her brake hoses inspected on her escape as they have become a well known issue for cracking. She routinely gets her vehicle serviced at a quick lube. They had never mentioned anything about the brake hoses but always mention things like air filters, fuel filters, PCV valves flushes etc. Last Sunday I took a look at them and they where so bad that the only time I have seen them worse is when the vehicles show up behind the tow truck because they have burst. I can understand why they never mentioned them because that isn't what they do yet we think that because our oil is changed and our air filter is new that everything is O.K.

If you brought that same vehicle into a full service shop for regular service. They did the "21 point inspection" and they never mentioned those hoses and they did fail soon after. Would you be curious/frustrated/mad that you just had it in for service and they never said anything? On the other hand you get frustrated/mad when the service writer approaches you with the estimate for all the things they found wrong with your vehicle. Believe me I have heard more than 1 or 700 times "why do you always have a list of things you have found wrong with my vehicle every time I bring it".

Everybody knows what is right with there vehicle. Its our responsibility to make sure you know what is wrong. No body is telling anyone that you have to have anything fixed right now or right here. Where simply letting you know that there can be issues that left unattended can cause bigger issues in the future. If you choose to have them taken care of now, great. If you want to take some time to shop around or get a second opinion, great. If you want to schedule the repairs at a later date, great. As long as you are aware of the issues.

As far as alignments go, If a customer brings a vehicle in for an alignment you better believe I am shaking the vehicle down pretty hard to find something wrong. Why? An alignment can easily take 45 minutes and depending on what needs to be adjusted/heated up/drilled out/ob-longed and can go well over an hour at which point I am loosing money. If I can offset that by replacing a worn out front end part than I'm happy. You don't always find something wrong but its a lot nicer when you do!

[muddpuppy]

In the end, it can never hurt to replace old things with new , but an honest trustworthy mechanic to me is like gold and if it costs a bit more or takes a bit longer, it's still worth it to me.

I agree, like I said there is some play but very little. So I do plan on replacing wether it's me or another shop. Right now I am not sure of. I have an uncle with a shop he has always been my mechanic but he is far from me now. That's why I started to do things my self.

Airjer

I was looking at moog parts that is what I have always used for front end parts. would you recomend a different brand? I did notice a 2nd part of the idler that bolts to the frame. I did not see a mention of it in the manual I have. Not to say it isn't there I just did not see it. I am trying to find out if the gearbox on my truck is a 3 or 4 grove. I called the dealership with not much luck. I think I will buy both and return the other. I will need to also get the other part of the idler setup. Do you think I should do the tirods while I am at it. there is no play in them .I would say no but I would like your opinion.

I have herd some horor stories about removing the pitman from the gear box. It looks like if I remove the front skid plate I might have enough room to leave the gear box in place instead of pulling it.

Thank you

[Jeremy airjer W]

MOOG has always done well for myself.

If there not loose than don't worry about them. You could help the guy aligning the vehicle out by sraying the sleeves that the tie rod ends go into. This will help quite a bit when

What year did they switch to rack and pinion?

[muddpuppy]

What year did they switch to rack and pinion?

? not sure? I have power steering with a gear box. I think you might be questioning the 3 or 4 grove dilema. wherre in the pitman arm where it attaches to the gearbox I guess there are 3 flat spots or 4 flat spots. It would look like this on the inside of the pitman arm end that attaches to the gear box.

^^^-^^^-^^^- or ^^^-^^^-^^^-^^^- as seen here

[Jeremy airjer W]

I wasn't sure if it was an option on the 03 or if it was a mid year switch. Juat wanted to make sure you had a gear box and not a rack. You'd really have a good argument if that was the case. LOL

There should be enough of the splines exposed on the output shaft where the pitman arm attaches to see how many flat spots there are. Otherwise you can always get both and return the one you don't need.

[Jeremy airjer W]

Mitchell labor guide gives 1.3 hours for the idler arm and 1.9 hours for the pitman arm so 3 hours is right on track.

[muddpuppy]

Well that is good to know, thank you.I feel a little better knowing that they are not just blowing smoke on the numbers.

I know that most places go by the book hoping to complete the job in less time hence making more money. (good for business) But wouldn't this job for both parts kinda fall hand in hand. I say this because most of what I have found and read says it is easier to pull the pitman while the Idler is off. And sometime you have to pull the idler aswell to drop the bar to pull the gearbox out if needed?

So in my theory the truck is already in the shop up in the air the tires are off tools already out etc. Is it not normal practice to cut time off the book in this situation.

I have an appointment to have a local shop take a stab at an alignment on the truck. If they come up with the same diagnostics. I will most likely have them just fix it. as my time is short and the allignment needs to be done.

Thanks again

[Jeremy airjer W]

I agree that there is some overlapping time but neither necessarily need to be removed to do the other. Lets say something unforseen comes up while doing the job (a bolt broke, or a nut stripped or the whole geer box has to be pulley because the pitman arm is really stuck on there and better access is needed to swing the hammer or heat it up) likely they will just get it done and not call you up and say we need more time. IMO its understood that things go wrong and many times there just taken care of at no extra cost. Those labor times cover that. It may not happen to you on that job but somewhere down the road its entirely possible that it will happen to you on another service. Its a wash after its all said an done (if that makes sense).

There are plenty of labor times that comp for over lap like ball joints for example. They will give a time for one and a time for both.

On the other hand I could argue that if you do a four wheel brake service than it should be cheaper than if you do the fronts and rears at two different times.

99% of the time I can beat the labor guide times. %50 of the time I can beat them by around half. I understand the customer point of view that if it only took the guy a half hour to do an hour job than why am I paying for an hour. From my point of view I have 15 some years of experience, more tools than I know what to do with, and have probably done the job so many times its silly. I know the order of what needs to be done and I've figure out all the tricks and short cuts. Give that same job to a rookie and it may take him an hour and a half or more. Should I make less because I'm good at what I do?

I'm just giving a my side of things perspective. I don't want to come off as rude, or arrogant, or argumentative. We hear and read customer perspectives all day long about how mechanics are thieves and highway robbers. Those people are out there but I would like to think there are far more who are very good at what they do and deserve some credit for there abilities, standards, and professionalism.

[Scott K]

Well said Jer!

[muddpuppy]

Well said Jer!

I agree great info airjer, really helps me put myself in the other guys shoes.

Thanks again for all your time

[muddpuppy]

I was finally able to get the truck in for another opinion. The front end was confirmed tight and in need of an alignment. Done deal Just thought I would update and thank everyone for your comments.

[Scott K]

Thanks for the update!