Breeding

[DuckDog]

Hello All!

Its been a little while since I have been on here. Had a question for all the experts out here.

I bought, and raised a superb yellow lab (red in color), who at two years old shows the traits of a wonderful hunter (got second in her first field trial) and an even better house dog. I have always thought that to breed a dog you should make sure you are "making the breed better" which at this point I am positive it will. She comes from excellent blood lines.

Because I wanted to wait and see the quality of my dog would be I did not register her (AKC) until last week (and wow the late fee is $65.00). She goes to the VET for x-rays to be sent off for hip and elbow certification, along with an eye certification.

What next? I would like to find a stud dog that would resemble her reddish color (I like the character of the color). She just went into heat about 5 weeks ago so I have some time to get my ducks in a row before her next cycle.

Any advice on where to find a quality stud dog? How does the process work?

[tealitup]

I have hunted behind this dog. When you breed Kinsey I would like to get a pup!

[Johnnie15]

Google whatever you are looking for. There are plenty of kennels out there advertising their studs. From there I would at minimum look for a couple of references of people who have pups out of the stud and go see the stud work in person. Titles are always a good indicator, but won't always result in a dog that passes the desired traits to it's pups. Also, make sure he has the proper health clearances. Don't forget about EIC.

Most kennels with Studs will list out the process in detail for you. It can vary a bit from kennel to kennel.

It's also a good idea to have buyers for a good portion of the pups before or shortly after the breeding takes place. Ask for a small deposit to weed out the wafflers. You want to make sure the pups have good homes line up before hand so you aren't scrambling to get rid of them.

Good luck! We had a litter last year and it was a lot of fun.

[DuckDog]

Oh EIC - got that on Monday also. Thanks for the reminder. I guess I had to make a different appointment for a dog optometrist... I think the dog's vet bill will be higher then my doctor's bills.

[Todd Caswell]

Post up her pedigree, so we can see what it looks like, some lines cross better than others. Sounds like youv'e got all your clearences done. What did she get a 2nd. in Derby? During the summer monthes there are alot of nice dogs up here (MN, Wisc.) running trials, and Hunt Tests, many studs from different lines to choose from. You don't nessisarily need to go to a kennel to find a stud.

[MNHuntress]

It sounds like reddish color is a requirement for the stud, do more research on that. For instance, my Wirehair pup was born yesterday. They can come in brown, liver/roan, black, and white. The mother was brown, and the father was white. So if I wanted a white pup, my chances of getting one are slim because white is the most recessive gene of all the colors.

I know with labs ppl always like chocolate, I've heard cases where the female was bred to a chocolate stud and what came out was black and yellow pups.

[Todd Caswell]

I would like to find a stud dog that would resemble her reddish color

Missed that part.

Your really narrowing your stud selection by trying to find a dark red male (wich is nothing more than a dark yellow), best not to worry about color, but focus more on what compliments your female.

But if you need a dark red there is a QAA/ MH in Bemidji MN "Torgs Labs"

[BirddogLabs]

I can agree that Whiteoak & BC Stoney Burke MH, QAA (Stoney) from Torgs does throw some very nice puppies. Stoney has the rich red fox coloring and if bred to a red fox female will result in red fox pups. I bred him to my black female last summer and had some very nice pups. The three yellows ranged in color, but the two darker yellow pups had red highlights. Linda and Steve Torgerson are very nice and knowledgeable people. They would be very willing to help you out and answer your questions. They also have Torg's Erik The Red, SH. He is also a red fox male. Erik has a excellent pedigree (sire is NFC FC AFC Drake) but is an EIC carrier. If your female is EIC Clear, then you would be okay (no chance of affected pups). So it would be very important to know her status prior to selecting the stud.

A couple of other stud dogs in MN that have been known to throw red fox pups when bred to a red fox female are NFC FC AFC Dewey's Drake of Moon River (EIC carrier) and FC AFC Crow Rivers Cougar's Mad Max. Both of these boys, I believe are starting to get up there in age, so it would mean contacting their owners to find out if natural breedings are still available.

If you are considering AI, the dog that I personally would check into is FC AFC CAFC Money Talks II (Copper). He is an awesome red fox male with all the clearances, excellent pedigree, most of the traits that people who are looking at labs want. I believe he is located in Maine.

These are just a few suggestions of where to start. Good luck and have fun with your search!

[LABS4ME]

I'm going to throw my two cents in here...

I would never and I mean never condone a breeding with known carriers, even if your female or stud was clear and you'd have no affected pups.... Unless:

All pups are sold on a limited registration..... period. ie: no offspring can be with from these animals and then be registered.

So what??? all of your pups will be unaffected but approx. 50% of the pups WILL be carriers and sold off to unsuspecting, uneducated, owners whom then go ahead and breed those pups, there by only skipping one generation of passing down this trait. Kinda outta site, outta mind.

I personally wish we had the Cahunas in this country to require all bred dogs to show they have all clearances in proper order prior to breeding. If you do not, the offspring cannot be recognized nor registered. But breeding pups (labs especially) is big money and these kennels will advertise it is O.K. to breed an 'unaffected' carrier if your dog is tested negative... there by all offspring will be 'unaffected'. If you want to stop these nasty diseases dead in their tracks... Do Not breed carriers. Plain and simple! I know personally how hard it is not to breed a carrier. I had a QAA direct son of Lean Mac whom was an EIC carrier (unknown at first) and also threw pups with retinal folds. It took a couple of breedings to confirm he was the one passing on the eye issue and that was enough for me to quit breeding him. I found out a few years later that he had thrown EIC genes also. This was all just in the front side of the EIC issue. Some of His pups that were from a known non-EIC carrier, tested positive as carriers. I had offers throughout his life to breed him as he was an outstanding dog, but they were all turned down for 7 straight years. It stunk as I would have loved to continue breed him, but you WILL NEVER clean up the breed if carriers or affected dogs are bred! Plenty of good clean dogs out there...

Good Luck!

Ken

[BirddogLabs]

I think I need to clarify and respond to LABS4ME. I am not condoning breeding carriers, and personally would not do it. My point is that if you or anyone is planning to breed their dog, it is important to know the facts prior to making any decisions. EIC and CNM are huge problems with Labs, among other things. As a responsible breeder it is important to have all clearances and know where your dog stands prior to breeding or even considering it. Just my opinion, for whatever it is worth. Regardless the main questions that this forum was about stud dogs that are out there that will throw the red fox color, and where to start looking. It was not intended to be another link about EIC, CNM, or other heated topics surrounding the issue of breeding. I mentioned only the stud dogs I know about that have produced red pups. The reason for listing the EIC status is because it is something to be aware of, obviously! The reason I listed NFC Drake and Erik (son of Drake), has to do with looking at what the stud dog is known for producing. Can the pups perform? Essentially will they do what you are breeding them to do? Yes, both are both carriers. NFC Drake is one of the best yellow males out there with regard to his perfomance. Drake is the second yellow lab ever to become a National Field Champion, which speaks for itself. What a person does with the information is their decision. If I were doing the research I would personally take the next step and see if there are any other known yellow males with the same or similar pedigree that produces red pups, but have the clear EIC status.

I was just trying to help a guy out with where they could start. Regardless it is important to do your own research and know what you are getting into prior to making any decisions.

I hope this helps.

Genuinely good luck with your search!

[LABS4ME]

and this poses one of the problems when one begins there search based on 'color' only...

I say start the other way... look for "THE BEST" labs in regards to health clearances, then physical structure and build, then narrow search to tractibility and performance, then finally color.

Too many breeders base their decision on a breeding based on color 1st... much the same as many puppy buyers base their decision on a dog on color 1st. I've had people walk away from a yellow pup that totally fullfilled all their requirements, but wasn't light enough of a yellow. I guess to each their own and I would never try to sway an owner into a pup, but it just kills me how much emphasis is put on hair color.

Birddoglabs... wasn't calling you out per se'... just trying to help a new breeder to understand his place in the whole benefit of the breed scenario.

Good Luck!

Ken

[Todd Caswell]

I would never and I mean never condone a breeding with known carriers, even if your female or stud was clear and you'd have no affected pups.... Unless:

All pups are sold on a limited registration..... period. ie: no offspring can be with from these animals and then be registered.

I don't agree with this, if we had had a test back in Lean Mac, and Lottie days and those owners had the same

mind set as you do we would have eliminated two dogs that brought ALOT to the table. I don't believe this test was developed to eliminate dogs from the gene pool (unless they test effected) it was designed to hopfully through responsible breeding eliminate affected dogs. I'm going to breed my QAA male to a carrier this summer, she's a really talented dog that we believe will cross nicely with my male, I'm going to take a female and don't really care if it's a carrier or not, you have to remember that a carrier is just as healthy as a non carrier.

"So what??? all of your pups will be unaffected but approx. 50% of the pups WILL be carriers "

Not true each puppy has a 50/50 % chance of being a carrier. You could have all carriers, all clear, and most likely a mix.

Now if you have a male that is a carrier, he better be a really good one FC or AFC if you plan on getting many breedings out of him, because there are alot of really nice clear dogs out there, but if you have a carrier female I see nothing wrong with breeding to a clear stud, and no need for limited registration, or the best thing would be to have the litter tested then you know what you have.

[LABS4ME]

To each their own when making the decision to breed or not... I am not the clearinghouse when making such a decision. I am giving my insight the same as you are giving yours. I think too many people belive their dog needs to be bred even if in the end they are not improving the breed... and yes that goes for helping to breed out inherited disorders. We let our egos and wallets determine many breedings.

The 50% line was meant as the odds on ratio... not a definitive amount of pups that will recieve the gene.

I will stand by my thoughts that carriers should not be bred unless the pups are sold on a limited registration. The limited registration can be lifted by the breeder upon proof that the pup is clear or proof that they are breeding to another clear. But see how in the end you ARE NOT breeding out the gene. You may be allowing another generation of carriers to be bred... and is that breeder going to go through the smae protocols to insure that the proper breedings of those pups are met? And it increases exponentially with every generation.

My contention is that there is too much emphasis put on the field traits and it makes no difference what you are going to pass down with regards to inherited disorders... It SHOULD hold as much value as any field title. And if Lean MAc's owners had my mindset and the test, we'd have a lot less EIC in our breed right now. The breed would still have it's superstars and it would not be anyless of a breed because they were not bred.

You even say you see no need for a limited registration... confirming what I am saying, you may be at worst just skipping a generation and those pups may be a carrier and could eventually be bred to another carrier. Not everyone is going to have their dog tested for EIC. I'll say the MAJORITY of labs being bred now are not. Most labs are bred from non-trial parents and they are lucky to have any testing done. And those puppys sell... they go to homes that are hunters and they have THE BEST HUNTER in the midwest and then they are bred... it is a never ending cycle unless we as breeders make the hard decisions it takes to cut off the infected arm. Testing the entire litter would be a great way to know what you are breeding, much the same as having the litters eyes CERFd before going home... but I'd like to know what your decision will be for pups that test positive as a carrier... limited? Not?

In the end, I am not condemning anyone fpr breeding anydog. It is as much the buyers responsibility as it is the breeders to help ensure that they know what they are buying into. If you make the decision to breed and those buyers willing buy knowing that they have going in a potential pup... then so be it. I am merely stating my thoughts on the best approach to getting rid of these incessant disorders that permeate through the lab breed. I do not believe in the end that any of the labrador disorders will be bred out. Solely because the money game determines whom will be bred, and let the chips fall as they may.

Good Luck!

Ken

[Todd Caswell]

but I'd like to know what your decision will be for pups that test positive as a carrier... limited? Not?

NOT, I believe that after the purchase has been made it is the buyers right to breed if they so choose, hopfully responsibly, if you try to start selling dogs with LR your going to be sitting on them.

And like I stated befor this test was never intended to Eliminate carriers, it was intended to eliminate effected dogs. Completly different than hip or eye disorders.

Without Lean Mac there may be less EIC in the FT/HT lines and some of those dogs washed out into the general backyard breeding pool, and those are the ones that may not do the testing.

[PoorWordUsage] haven't been tested, but then again I'm not looking in the paper either, believe it or not some have never even heard of it.

[rundrave]

I believe that after the purchase has been made it is the buyers right to breed if they so choose, hopfully responsibly, if you try to start selling dogs with LR your going to be sitting on them.

[Todd Caswell]

Wish I knew how to do multible quotes.

Why would a breeder go ruin their years of work by letting someone breed their dogs to any dog out there.

I guess I don't see it as THERE dog anymore, if they request I put there name in the registration I'm ok with that but don't tell me if and when I can breed my dog if I choose to.

I'm speaking from a retriever owners it view may be differen't with other breeds but most quality litters don't come from kennels or so called breeders but from "hobby" breeders that run FT or Ht and have very few litters and only breed after the dog has proven it has the qualitys and the health clearenes, to be a breedable dog. And after you add up all the costs there really is very little money in raising a litter even with high end pups.

Iv'r got a female that is a wonderful hunting dog more than most people could ask for and a great family dog as well, but she has some qualitys that I didn't feel would make her a breedable dog, she was very shy as a young dog and doesn't handle pressure well, Even though she may do MH level work in training, she shuts down at a test, so I had her spayed. Iv'e hunted with alot of people that have asked if she is going to be breed, I felt I did the right thing by getting her fixed, it's really up to the owner, there the ones paying the vet and food bills.

[LABS4ME]

Again... you can breed if you choose... that is your decesion. I don't think anyone is stating not to breed.... Your decesion to breed is not going to based on the same criteria as mine in the end. Nothing wrong with that... it makes the world go 'round. I no longer view my dogs success in the field as enough criteria to establish if it should be bred or not. That is only a fraction of the equation... but in the money game it is the preponderance of the reason. (I still say ego is #2.) I understand... it is expensive to buy a pup, train it, run it, title it, breed it... they all want a pay back. You can run any dog you want and still achieve success... even double dysplastic dogs have been titled. But all to often the disorders or potential of them are swept under the rug. I just feel they should be bred not only bsed on advancing the field abilities of of the breed, but ALL facets of the breed...

Do you feel a breeder has an ethical obligation to disclose that one of the parents is a known carrier of EIC prior to the purchase or in the contract? Or is it simply good enough that you did your part in not producing affected dogs and let the next generation worry about it? Maybe then a young family can be purchasing their first lab from a carrrier offspring bred to a carrier (you stated many people still do not know about EIC) and then have to make the decision to put their pup down at 2 because of EIC issues... fair to them? Their kids? the dog? Advanicng and improving the breed is sooo much more than the judging of a dogs tractibility, how much pressure it takes, whether it can do a 300 yard land-water quad...steady on an honor...

For all Mac did to give his offspring a huge opportunity to be light years ahead in the trial game, it is becoming offset by having to deal with this disease. We still would have had a NFC - NAFC each of the years he won it... there still would be trial labs... there still would be hot dogs and superstars... I guess what I am saying is the breed is bigger than any one dog. We would still be moving forward with or without him. I would rather not have had hom and what he brought to the table in regards to ability and not have EIC through out the breed.

Again, my take... may never in any way be yours...

Good Luck!

Ken

[Todd Caswell]

Do you feel a breeder has an ethical obligation to disclose that one of the parents is a known carrier of EIC prior to the purchase or in the contract?

Most definatly, that to me is the most important part of this whole discussion, with a test in place there is no reason for buying or even looking at a litter if the testing has not been done.

Four years ago when I got the dog in my avatar, there was no test we had the sneeking suspicion the sire was a carrier but were pretty certain the female was not because she had been bred to 3 other times to 3 different studs with no problems, I almost passed because I wanted to make sure I didn't end up with an effected dog, I had trained with one befor and it's not pretty. We were correct the Sire is a carrier and the female is clear and I ended up with a clear dog as well, and perhaps the most talented dog, I guess I got lucky.

I agree a breedable dog means more than just titles it invloves health, bidability, personality, ect.

I'm sure the breed would have been just fine without Max, or Lottie but the point being you can't eliminate every talented dog from the gene pool that is a carrier without taking something away from the breed in the process.

Were never going to convince or rid the world of irresponsible backyard breeders,that sell $100.00 puppys from" Championship" lines, but I do believe that the people that are involved in any level of competition OB to FT are fully aware of the need to test and are doing it, hopfully more people will become aware, Iv'e turned down 2 breedings because the other party had not had the test done and didn't feel the need to because they had never had a problem befor. So it's not always about the money.

[LABS4ME]

It's good to have an open debate amongst people who love the breed and the direction it's going...

And in the end we agree more than we disagree.

Good Luck with your future breedings Todd!

Ken

[DuckDog]

Wow awesome discussion folks. I think in my opening statement I said I believe that one should only produce puppies to make the breed better. This is why I waited over 2 years to even register her with AKC.

Also if she was a EIC carrier I would end the process now. Once again, I think there are too many quality dogs out there to even chance it.

Does anyone know of a place to get her eyes certified? The one Dr. I found had a month wait time. Her x-rays were sent in yesterday.

Labs4Me, I understand that you think color should not matter in the breeding and should be the last resort; however, this is going to be a one time breeding and I am willing to wait until I find the right mixture of pedigree, color, temperament, physical appearance and ability. Basically, I am not breeding her just to breed her. Your insight has been extremely knowledgeable and THANK YOU EVERYONE!

[LABS4ME]

Not saying color is a last resort... obviously we breed to produce colors... just implying it is not a first and foremost with me... but if you are going to be super selective, I'm sure you will find just what you are looking for. People have at times scratched their heads at me when I breed a yellow to a black that does not throw yellow... but it was a breeding I saw an opprtunity to put nice dogs on the ground.... but I have sought out to breed yellow pups, just never discerned which shade of yellow I was going to produce... If it all falls into place, I say absolutely go for it.

I use Dr. Olivero in Vetinary Opth. services... you will get your pass or fail righ there at your appointment. Just need to send in certificate to get your CERF number.

Good Luck!

Ken

[BirddogLabs]

I also use Dr. Olivero, located in St. Louis Park.

[DuckDog]

How much can I expect for that bill? What have you two typically been paying for x-rays (non sedated) and EIC testing

[Dan189]

a very detailed and intelligent discussion in regards to breeding.

However no one has answered the most important question:

Any unusual breeding?

[Todd Caswell]

a very detailed and intelligent discussion in regards to breeding.

However no one has answered the most important question:

Any unusual breeding?

I don't understand