Is my son able to ride his XC 120 on the lake?

[My_Key]

I recently purchased an XC 120 for my son, as he quickly is becoming a sled head. According to the MN snowmobile guidelines:

Without a snowmobile safety certificate, a person under the age of 14 years may operate a snowmobile only if they are supervised or accompanied by one of the following: parent, legal guardian, or other person 18 years of age or older designated by the parent or guardian. The supervising or accompanying adult needs to be close enough to be able to direct the youth’s operation of their snowmobile.

My son is 5 and is already riding next to me, but we do it on private land. If there is a CO from MN out there, I would appreciate some assistance. I know they offer courses for kids around the age of 11, but as he can barely write his name, I doubt he could pass a written exam at the time. If I am riding my sled next to him on the lake, is he considered close enough to me?

[PmDavis300]

the way i read it i think thats what they are saying. you need to be riding next to him.

[Dave S]

Yes, you should be ok allowing him to ride with you.

[Shack]

I would not be looking for a CO so much as a Snowmobile instructor or even the county sheriff for this answer.

I would highly doubt this would be legal on a public lake.

Quote:

The supervising or accompanying adult needs to be close enough to be able to direct the youth’s operation of their snowmobile.

The key word is "direct". I take it as the supervisor physically being able to direct the machine, I.E. shut it off, steering it out of harms way, reduce throttle. But with how it is worded, does it allow for verbally directing the under age driver?

[PmDavis300]

im thinking its one of those gray areas

[rcatcherman]

The awnser is at 12 they can not cross streets. That is with a snowmobile saftey certificate. As far as on the lakes trails they are fine...

[Shack]

Now I just called down to The enforcement division at the DNR headquarters in St. Paul (651-259-5800) and read the scenario to them.

They quickly said the accompanying adult "has" to be on the snowmobile. If the child veers off, runs into danger, they want someone on the machine to help prevent this. They also informed me of the crossing the road deal also. The exception would be on private land.

They also said a certificate can not be issued until the age of 12.

[rcatcherman]

My daughter got hers last December and was 11. She could get it being her birthday was in the end of Febuary the next year, which was the 2008 - 2009 season. Even Larry the DNR person on Lake of the Woods by Arnesen's checked her Certificate and let her ride away while we fished for the big ones...

[Dave S]

If snowmobiles are anything like ATVs as far as training goes, kids may take the training at the age of 11. Their certificate is not valid until their 12th birthday.

Now in the case of ATVs, they can ride on public lands and trails under the age of 12, they just cannot do so on a full size machine over 90cc.

Sorry Shack, but you will not get a full grown adult and a kid on a 120cc snowmobile. Even though that's what the DNR told you, I have a strong feeling the person you spoke to is incorrect.

In fact if it is anything like ATVs, they must be accompanied by an adult or legal guardian aged 18 or older "on another machine".

[PmDavis300]

lol id like to see a full grown man on the back of a kitty cat

[Dave S]

After a quick check on page 20 of the reg's, they are as the OP stated, verbatim. Nothing about being on another machine.

[Shack]

After a quick check on page 20 of the reg's, they are as the OP stated, verbatim. Nothing about being on another machine.

That is what I said:

Originally Posted By: Shackbash

The key word is "direct". I take it as the supervisor physically being able to direct the machine, I.E. shut it off, steering it out of harms way, reduce throttle. But with how it is worded, does it allow for verbally directing the under age driver?

I do not know? I guess if it was to come to my children, I would wait. Plus, I would loose more than my child if something happened to him Double plus, if something happened, it would hit the paper and eventually would end up in the Outdoors forum, and I would be ripped apart In the end a parent has to do what a parent has to do.

I tried calling a local CO and he referred me to call back downtown.

The last time i have run across any type of law enforcement while trail riding was the county sheriff. In my youth the only agency that had a snowmobile around Elk River was the Elk River PD. They had a Polaris Storm with a radar gun on it. This is why I would also maybe ask the sheriff in the area you ride.

[My_Key]

There is no way I am going to even attempt to ride with him on his sled. I'm almost too big to ride it without him, which by the way, is a sight to see.

The main reason I posted it here was I have seen that some local CO's have posted on HSO, and hoped one would provide insight. There is gray area in the handbook, so I hoped to clear it up. It's only a matter of time before he requests we load his up when we head to the lake for some ice fishing. I'm just hoping to get a clear answer before that happens.

[Shack]

My_Key,

We only have a couple CO's that post here on FM/HSO. I called the office of one of them and they referred me to call the info line down at the headquarters in St. Paul (651-296-6157 or the info line at 651-296-6157).

Also, I encourage you to contact someone direct. A ton of good advice on HSO, but things can be wrong at times (myself included).

I was told one thing from the DNR, but LEP says different. I trust his opinion and it would not be the first time I have got a questionable answer from the DNR office.

But like they always say "If you have a question about a law, ask it in the area and by whom you will get busted".

Good luck

[Dave S]

I'm nearing the end of my shift. I will try to research this more after I get home. I want to make sure the OP gets the right info.

And you are correct Shack, sometimes the downtown office does give the wrong info. I find it odd the CO wouldn't know enough about the law to tell you one way or the other. They enforce the laws right along with the Sheriffs Dept. Atleast the guys in my area do.

[My_Key]

My understanding is that the local PD, sheriff's office and MN DNR all enforce the snowmobile laws. I guess I would have thought to call the sheriff's office, but I haven't seen a sheriff's deputy on a lake in YEARS. Whereas I run into a CO checking licenses on the frozen lake a few times a year.

Thanks for the help, and maybe I'll have to call all 3 counties I fish in to be sure they all are in agreement.

[Dave S]

Now that I had a chance to reread the text on page 20 and look for anything that states My_Key's son is not allowed to ride on a lake, I still come up empty handed. Nowhere in the regs does it state that youth under the age of 12 MAY NOT ride on frozen waters that I noticed.

I will offer kudos to Shack for being part of a growing minority of parents who are willing too say to their kids they can wait until they're a little older.

If it were one of my kids and my situation, I would not hesitate to have one of my kids on an open terrain area such as a frozen lake. After I'm absoslute certain the conditions are safe of course. (ice, spearing holes, hidden pressure ridges). No one knows our children's abilities better than the parents. But on the flip side, no one can overestimate our children's abilties more than the parents.

But again in all honesty, I will side with it's ok, but to err on the side of caution like Shack said and contact the local branch of Law Enforcement.

I'm still miffed by the referral to the DNR office in St. Paul. I just can't see them calling downtown to make sure there's a law against something when they pull someone over.

[Surface Tension]

At 5 years old on public land NO. Private land yes.

[My_Key]

I called a local sheriff's office, and the deputy I spoke to was unable to answer my question. He said that it would be a question for the DNR to answer. How ironic. He did put me through to his captain, and after a brief conversation, he gave me a direct line to a Lieutenant at the MN DNR.

My conversation with the DNR officer was pretty informative. He came to the conclusion that it is legal. As long as he is close enough to me. This was also under the assumption that my son would be riding a 120cc. It could be completely different if it were say, a 340cc.

Does this mean we're racing out to the lake after school to go ride? No, but maybe someday I'll let him follow me out to the fish house.

[My_Key]

Oops, I forgot to note that the Lt. said he hadn't been in the field for awhile, and was going to call me back if he found out it was illegal.

[Dave S]

My_Key,

Thanks for the reply back. Whatever you end up doing, enjoy the ride and be safe.

[Shack]

Well maybe we have stirred up enough dust on the subject to get it clarified next year The XC 120 is a pretty common sled for kids now-a-days.

When I called down to St. Paul it took two people on speaker phone in the enforcement division to say it was illegal.

Thanks for the follow up My_Key.

[Dave S]

Good point Shack. I would rather see it spelled out better where they list the age requirements for training so there is, without a doubt, no question of "can I" or "can't I". If nothing else, the enforcement division should have the statute available to answer any questions more accurately.

Even if it were legal, I personally wouldn't take a kid out on the trails knowing how fast some people ride. A wide open area like a lake with good ice IMO would be a little safer.

Similar to ATVs, it's become more of a family oriented sport. I can see some changes coming in the future.

[My_Key]

I agree 100% with you, there is no way I'd take him riding trails. And I think it would be hard to trail ride legally with an un-certified child anyway, as they can't legally cross county or state roads until they have a certification.

Thanks again guys. Like you said, hopefully we helped them see how unclear it was in their regulations book.

[Dave S]

I dug a little deeper and found this on another site:

84.872 Youthful snowmobile operators; prohibitions.

Subdivision 1. Restrictions on operation. (a) Notwithstanding anything in section 84.87 to the contrary, no person under 14 years of age shall make a direct crossing of a trunk, county state-aid, or county highway as the operator of a snowmobile, or operate a snowmobile upon a street or highway within a municipality.

A person 14 years of age or older, but less than 18 years of age, may make a direct crossing of a trunk, county state-aid, or county highway only if the person has in immediate possession:

(1) a valid snowmobile safety certificate issued by the commissioner;

(2) a driver's license that has a valid snowmobile qualification indicator issued under section 171.07, subdivision

12; or (3) an identification card that has a valid snowmobile qualification indicator issued under section 171.07, subdivision 12.

( Notwithstanding section 84.862, no person under the age of 14 years shall operate a snowmobile on any public land, public easements, or water or grant-in-aid trail unless accompanied by one of the following listed persons on the same or an accompanying snowmobile, or on a device towed by the same or an accompanying snowmobile: the person' parent, legal guardian, or other person 18 years of age or older designated by the parent or guardian. However, a person 12 years of age or older but under the age of 14 years may operate a snowmobile on public lands, public easements, and waters or a grant-in-aid trail if the person has in immediate possession a valid snowmobile safety certificate issued by the commissioner.