Help! Fighting Dogs....

[Big Brown]

I am in desperate need of help. I am the proud papa of two dogs. One is a 2 year old chocolate lab and the other is a 5 year old English Springer. They have been thrust together as a result of my recent marriage 4 months ago and are not getting along.

They have been getting in major fights over this time period that have been progressively getting worse. The flare ups can come at any given time. They can be sitting in two different rooms looking at each other and start growling which result in a fight. They never fight over food.

At first I thought that they were just trying to establish a pecking order in the house but now I am starting to get concerned as they are starting to draw blood and hurt each other.

They do not show this aggressive behavior towards other dogs or people.

How can we stop this? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Big Brown

[BLACKJACK]

You don't say whether they're male or female or fixed, but I'll assume they're both males. First, take their nuts out. But that won't help right away, they'll still have plenty of testosterone flowing.

Second, I disagree with you, they're still trying to establish a pecking order/pack dominance. You have to let them know that you, as the head of the pack, will not tolerate fighting! Get them both outside on a leash, go for walks, when one growls at the other, let them know in no uncertain terms that you won't tolerate that. By no uncertain terms, I mean a good kick in the ribs or grab them and shake them up. Or two shock collars. Be careful, I know someone that lost part of a finger trying to break up a dog fight!! You're going to have to let them know everytime they growl and start raising hackles that its unacceptable! Hopefully after 6 months the lower testosterone and your dominance will convince them. Good luck!

It may be easier to just get rid of one....

[Big Brown]

Thanks for the quick reply. Actually the are both cut females.

If I get to them in time I can stop the big blow out but once they get going it is tough to stop. They have opened me up a couple of times. I do have two collars that we will try going forward. The key will have to be getting to them early because once they go off there is no physical "reinforcement" that will get their attention.

As far as getting rid of one. I know that my lab will not be going and I sure would miss my wife

[This message has been edited by Big Brown (edited 02-12-2004).]

[Gill]

What happens to the dogs just after one of these blow-outs? I've seen this fighting behavior actually reinforced when, once broken apart, each of the dogs is calmed by petting and sweet talk by their respective owners (making the dogs think their getting rewarded for their behavior). I agree with the previous post, you must aggressively extinguish any growling, staring and fighting between the dogs. Throw them into isolation immediately following any conflict.

[Big Brown]

For fear of sounding heavy handed, I will just say that there is no positive reinforcement being given. I do like the idea of isolation. Both dogs are very social and hate to be isolated. I will give that a try. I am hoping the e-collars will prevent some of them but they are so random that they catch me off guard a lot. For example, my wife just got in the shower this morning and I was still sleeping when the blow out occur in the living room. By the time I got out there they were in full battle.

[LABS4ME]

What is it between Labs and Springers?

My friend had an old springer and decided he wanted a lab pup. Over the next three years they would really get into the all-out, full-on battles for no apparent reason. Get along great one minute...ripping each others hide off the next. Best one was when he stopped over one day, both dogs on the front seat of the truck, decided to go at it, well they hit the power lock button while the truck was idiling, so there was no way to break them up, kind of a "doggy cage match", well after they each lost a pint of blood and were satisfied there was no winner they laid down and licked their wounds, while we went and got the extra set of keys, boy was the inside of his new truck "pretty" with all them red stains.

They never totally got over their fighting, but if someone was around to help, it'd work better to break them up. It probably is a dominence issue...see if you can tell if one is instigating it. If so, really jump their sh!t to let them know they are by no means the top of the ladder. Get them in the most submissive posture to a dog, rolled over on their back, with you laying on top off them, one hand on the muzzle pushing it down and the other wrapped around it's neck like another dog pinning them down with their mouth. Really give them a good verbal ear lashing when in this position and kind of push them when letting them up. Ears should be back and tail down at that point. Call them over and make them submit to you at heal. You'll probably need someone else around when doing this so the other dog doesn't take advantage of the situation. Some dogs are like people and they just don't get along. Make sure they don't have personal items like toys, doggy beds, bones etc. that one can go by and start this up.

You may at best be looking for a goal of tolerence as opposed to them actually getting along...

Hope it all works out!

Ken

[chesepeke]

Big brown

I feel your pain. I got married 2 years ago and lived together for another 1 yr. and my older dog who is 9 and my wifes dog absolutly hate each other. DO NOT DO NOT use a shock collar I have experienced this first hand and its not good it will just get worse. I have tried everthing in the book but its to the point where if they even smell each other its game on. We now keep my two and her dog seperated at all times. Its not fun and they acedentally get together once and a while and if I cant break it up right away its a trip to the vet. Do remember dogs are like us we may get along with every one but there is always some one that we just cant stand and we have some sort of conflict with them. I have tried professional help but it just went no where. Estbilsing pecking order is probally not the case here if there drwing blood, i thought that was my case and tried to monitor it to show i was at the top of the list but that didnt work either. I gave no praise to either after breaking them up and even put the fear of death into them but still no results. Not sure if this helps or not I feel yor pain and it sucks. Im just going to wait for one to pass away, more than likely my older dog whos 9 now and then just start over. Good luck

[Swamp Scooter]

Hey have you though that your Springer might suffer from Rage??? There are a lot of them out there. Springer Rage is just that. An uncontrollable agressive time when they go after things. It is kind of like a seizure in that when they are done they forget what happened, sometimes.

Control is your biggest troubles. You can pick which one will be the first dog but not always the dominant one. Feed the older one first ALWAYS. The younger/bigger lab will have the physical advantage but you must not let it abuse the older/smaller dog. Make the younger one wait and learn its place in the house. You are the boss. If you raise your voice or stature they should pay attention to you not each other. You need to be recognized as the Alpha, no matter what.

Work hard on this. Get control by playing mind games with them. Play fetch with both of them and only send one then the other after a single dummy. They will learn to wait their turn. I sugest you tie the one waiting up to keep them from breaking. This will help with possessive behavior too. They each need to know they have a place but you are the one that gets to set the limits. Do not be afraid to Alpha roll either one and pin them down until they give up. You need to assert your dominant roll or they will continue to fight for it.

Not an easy thing but definately a good winter project. Good luck.

[Big Brown]

Thanks for all of the replys guys! Well I have done a lot of research on the Springer Rage and I am pretty sure that we are not looking at it in this case. I think it is a servere case of dominance aggression. We had another few flare ups this weekend and the lab ended up with a lame front leg. It is really swollen and has a few punctures. I hope that this is just a sprain. We have had them separated since Friday but any time they even look at each other the growling starts.

I am well established as the Alpha in the house (except with the Wife) but I just don't think that the Springer will ever relent on the lab. We have had other agression issues with her in the past in trying to disicpline her and visitors.

We are looking to have kids soon so we are considering giving her up to a good home. This will be difficult on the wife and the guilt is killing me just considering it.

I will keep you posted as to the result of our progress (hopefully) and the future.

Am I giving up too easy? I just feel like the lab is being abused and the springer is constantly feeling threatened. This can't be a good way for them to live.

-Big Brown-

[Swamp Scooter]

How about having the lab live outside? Not the greatest of situations but might save on the vet bills. Did you say they did it outside too or just in the house? Glad it is not Rage. Just had to put it out there. Tough to have to give one up.

[Gus]

I'm just wondering how your situation is coming along? It's been a few weeks since the thread died. I hope things are well.

[Big Brown]

Gus,

Thanks for checking in. It has been a difficult couple of weeks. Needless to say we are down to one dog. The good news is that the Springer has found a great new home.

Things continued to get worse from my last post. The dogs would not relent on the fighting and in the end our lab ended up geting a pretty nasty gash on its throat.

My wife finally decided to give her springer up and put it up for adoption in the paper.

We really lucked out and found an older woman from Wisconsin who two weeks ago lost her husband. She has had springers in the past and lives on a farm with no childern or other pets. She has been real good with my wife who is still struggling with the loss and gives her frequent updates.

We both feel real guilty because the house is such a better place to live for both of us and the lab has not only seemed much more happy but her behavior is steadily improving as well. No more barking at visitors (she didn't do this before the spinger moved in) or jumping up on you for attention.

This could also be that I had a heart to heart talk with her about the expectations being raised as a result of having to give up the springer. Unfortunately I think that she will have to serve breakfast in bed for my wife before she accepts her!

Needless to say we struggle with our decision but feel that it is the best for everyone as we did not have confidence in any "behaviorists" that we spoke to and did not want to medicate the springer for life.

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions and support!

Big Brown