force fetch training

[Kallista]

Thank you so very much, i fully understand now why handing is important and not just dropping it..

I am learning about training a bird dog, and you are all my teachers and i thank you for that, giving me the info and helping me see other points of view and training methods as well..Always better with 10 teachers or helpers then one.

If anyone ever wants to know anything about dog sledding, just let me know been doing that for 20 plus years.

thank you again

[MLaker2]

Kallista

I have only occasionally followed this post. Thanks for the insight you provided on 9/24, I and some of my freinds agree fully.

"The hidden danger in force fetch training is that it compensates for behaviors that should be developed by selective breeding. This idea occurred to after a few years of working with many puppies of American Field Trial breeding and many puppies of British Field Trial breeding. There is a glaring behavioral difference between the two genetic pools of puppies. A much higher percentage of British puppies automatically deliver to hand, than do American puppies of field trial breeding"

"Force fetch training is bad for the breed, but we seem to be saddled with it."

I and my freinds are old enough and been thru enough Labs to see the change in the Labrador Retreiver breed. Now, athleticsm and drive for the bird seems paramount to behavior at hand. To me the "Retreiver" in Labrador Retreiver has become secondary.

I'm going to say this. A Labrador that REQUIRES "force fetch" to retreive should be put down just as if it had bad hips or other genetic malady. The "drop a cripple that got away" line is pure dump. A lab worth having senses the bird is alive and will hold until releaved from its master.

We pay inflated prices for these supposedly pure lines and then are expected to train them for behaviors their ancestors held naturally. It's just puppy farming to expect Joe public to train after bad breeding. I'm about ready to go to a pointing breed.

That ought to stir it up a bit.

[MLaker2]

Oh, and another thing I forgot to mention. As long as I'm on a rant.

This hard "drive to the bird" they want to see at field trials almost REQUIRES the use of an electronic collar to control the dog in the field. Another reason I don't care for the field trial lines. It is not natural to the breed not to work for the master. If you have had a couple natural retreiving, close working Labrador retreivers you would not be happy with what you have to do to the current genetic pool.

Force fetch and shock collars are crutches for poor genetics in Labrador Retreivers. Do you think people didn't hunt before the 90"s???

[LABS4ME]

Obviously written by someone who has an 'interest' in British Labs.

I've had both and trained both. They have inherant differences, but your statements are beyond far fetched. I've trialed, I've ran and judged hunt tests and I hunt extensively. I have owned and trained dozens of Labs... I've seen the change in the breed over the last 2 decades. Do I except that all the changes are positive? No! I've even posted that. I am not sold 100% on the direction that the Labrador breed is going, but to say any lab that is forced should be put down is THE #1 MOST LUDICROUS THING I HAVE EVER READ ON THIS FORUM!!!!!

Good Day Sir!!!

[JDM]

I'll bet you have paid people to train your dogs. You probably had / have a FF'd dog and didn't even know it.

As far as your e collar comment - any dog can be trained without it. It is not necessary, but only a tool to help get the job done. There were some pretty cruel tricks of the trade (of which I will not elaborate on this post)in the old days that the e collar made obsolete.

For those in the know, your post identifies you as someone who clearly doesn't know what you are talking about and has an agenda based upon non-truths and myth. You are not doing anyone looking for advice on this board any favors. Meanwhile, I am going to go lock my kennel just in case your in my neighborhood. Duck season starts Saturday and I am concerned about what you would do to my force fetched, e collar trained, highly stylish, American bred, well tempered, classic looking black labrador retriever if given the chance.

[duckbuster]

What you just said is the most insanely, idiotic thing I have ever heard. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listen to it!!!!!!!

[jigging-matt]

After reading the post I wasn't sure how to respond without (contact us please) all over the post. Statements like that are insane.

[gspman]

Quote:

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I'm about ready to go to a pointing breed.

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Please, stay with your choosen breed. There are pointing labs. If you switched I'd have to listen to you bash trial breeding and use of e-collars in the pointing breeds.

[trailratedtj]

Do u ever have a super bad day? Geez im ready to pull my hair out! Just got done working with the dog and he didnt want anything to do with fetching. He wouldnt even hardly move. We having been doing so well with frozen birds and then all of a sudden today he decides he want to just go out and circle the thing. If i put it in front of him he grabs it on command. If i pull out the dokken mallards he retrieves fine.Does your dog ever have days where it just doesnt want to work at all? Like he went (Contact Us Please) over night? I think his "on" switch has a short and his dumb switch is hardwired!

[gspman]

Back up a couple steps and try again. Then work him back to where you are now.

[duckbuster]

Once a dog gets to the fetching portion of FF there are a few levels/steps that you work to until you can say you have completed the task.

1) fetch while the dowel/bird is right in front of his mouth

2) fetch while it is below his chin and between his paws

3) fetch while you are holding it on the ground

4) fetch while you are no longer holding it and it lays on the ground

5) fetch while you are walking around it while it lays on the ground

Once you have gotten to this point you have basically finished the FF. If you have not gotten to this point you leave yourself open for set backs like you have spoken of.

He has not gotten to the point of understanding that he is retrieving for you NOT for himself.

GOOD LUCK!!

[trailratedtj]

duckbuster.

My problem is stubborness. Anything within 15 feet he will retrieve. anything over that and its hit or miss. Today i took him into a new environment, full of scents, water, and woods. Everything to help him "break". We had already warmed up in the backyard with some simple "in his face" forces out to about 15'. So once we started at this new place i began once again with the simple forces. He has these down pat but i always open up the training to show him whats going on and who's boss. After all that jazz i tossed one out at about 10yards. I got on him pretty good with a stern force command and the retrieve was made. After that the usual started, he wanted to pay more attention to scents and getting into the water. Being collar conditioned, i have been slowly introducing it into the more distant tosses. Well i hit him with the collar and it got him off the scent and on to another. So i kept creeping up the intensity till it got his attention. Finally it took a few more tries but i was able to break him of the surroundings to get the fetch out of him. The only thing was it takes nearly 100% intensity. After a couple at 100% you can knock it down to %30-%40. He is very very stubborn. The only thing i know to keep doing is using the collar.

generally i give him the command

he takes off and if he stops and starts on another mission i give him the command and a "nick" if he doesnt respond the i hold it on "constant" and repeat the command.

As soon as his mouth touches the dummy i release the buttom.

Then i give him the "heel" command

and then shortly there after i tell him to drop and we repeat.

Please if you have any suggestions of anything im doing wrong or anything else i can do feel free to chime in.