Scopes on Muzzle loaders

[Whoaru99]

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I think scopes should not be allowed for reason already given. Just as many will use them to take longer than practical shots as will hunters trying to have better placement.

The rule of the "game" is not to shoot beyond ones capacity/comfort level, isn't it?

If they are going to allow scopes, then why the ban on smokeless powder for ML? I can use the exact same reason there, better accuracy and more humane kill.

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Do you honestly think that there isn't people out there with scoped rifles that are taking longer shots than are practical. Why are people blaming mz hunters for taking to long of shots with scopes when they aren't allowed to even use them? My father in law would love to hunt the regular firearms season and use a scope on his rifle but he works six days a week until thanksgiving so this doesn't allow him to do so. The only season he can hunt is mz. He eyesight isn't the best and he has a permit to use a non magnifing scope. But shouldn't he be allowed to use a magnifing scope just like regular firearms hunters? I think that it is kind of senseless to offer an inline mz loader and not be able to use a scope on it. Kinda like having a corvette on the autoban and only driving 55.

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Of course there are people taking longer than realistic shots, happens with open sights too. I see it fairly regular in slug season.

Further, just because you can see it with the scope, doesn't mean you can hit it anyway. You still have to make the shot. Scope or not, a long shot requires a steady aim and good technique.

Not to brag, or complain, but the doe I took last day of the season was 156 paces. I'm a 6'3" guy so my pace is pretty close to a yard. The doe more or less dropped where it stood when the Barnes Expander went through both front shoulders.

My point of that is I shot probably 50-60 sabot loads getting to know the gun and load trajectory before season. If you know your gun, your load, and your capabilities, open sights are not a significant hinderance on a ML.

[JDM]

If the traditionalists do get a season for themselves, they shouldn't get to use modern outer clothing, boots, long underwear, etc.... Afterall, they want that authentic experience that a scope would ruin....

[gorrilla]

yeah maybe they should travel to their hunting destination via horse or dogsled to prove how out of touch "modern" accurate weapons are.

It just seems hypocritical to see a "traditional" buckskin dude sitting in a thousand dollar plastic stand with his Mr. Buddy Heater over his Biologic Food Plot.

My rips are just in fun leather/flintlock guys...

I do wish the DNR would legalize scope on Muzzleloaders and let us make the choice of how to get in touch with our roots. I thought it seemed like a governer on my excellerator. Its still loaded through the muzzle and shoots just one at a time.If the gun is built to shoot then let it...

For cripes sake its currently legal to have ten loaded flintlocks in your stand like the Alamo, but heaven forbid we think of magnification to more accurately down a deer.

[ScoutII]

gorilla: I think you have the right idea. [its still loaded through the muzzle and shoots just one at a time.If the gun is built to shoot then let it...]The only restiction I think is nessasary is that the weapon should not have velocity or energy levels similer to Hi-power rifles when used in a shotgun zone. Performance similar to a shotgun and slug weapon should be allowed. Because like your saying loads through the muzzle and only a single shot at a time should qualify.

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[Whoaru99]

As has been said before, if it's such a big deal, leave the shotgun at home and use your scoped ML during slug season.

[JDM]

Really? My shotgun / sabot slug combo will shoot 2000 FPS and only drops 7 inches at 200 yards with a 150 yard zero. I'll take that from my muzzleloader everyday. Yes, my shotgun has a scope.

[Whoaru99]

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Really? My shotgun / sabot slug combo will shoot 2000 FPS and only drops 7 inches at 200 yards with a 150 yard zero. I'll take that from my muzzleloader everyday. Yes, my shotgun has a scope.

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What's your point?

[96trigger]

I hunt the shotgun season and I have shot muzzle loaders. I have never had a tough time picking out the front of a deer at 75 yards. Last fall I drilled a coyote at 70 yards in the neck, 1 in from where I was aiming. I also drilled a doe at 75 yards, dropped her in her tracks. If the muzzleloader has that poor of a sight, put on a new one.

As for the scopes. If you have a medical condition, by all means, use a scope. Nobody will argue with you on that. As for comparing the bow season to the muzzlelaoder. Quit it, its not even close to the same. We are talking about taking most shots from with in 30 yards, to shots within 100 yards. I can tell you right now, I have seen numerous nice deer just out of bow range, but well within ML range. We may have 4-1/2 months to shoot one, but realistically, when the guns come out, the archery season slows way down. Its more like a 2 week prerut season. Most bow hunters will tell yout that.

I also think there are some ML hunters using scopes with quick detach mounts. Off when they walk in, off when they walk out, but who knows what happens when they get to the stand. I know there will be people out there that don't do that and will criticize me for saying it, but I'm sure that some of you know people that use them anyway.

This thread was simply started because of deer at a long distance. If you can't see the target, don't take the shot. If you can't get a clean kill, don't attempt it. If your sights are too large, put on new ones. 75 yards with an inline should have been an easy shot. I think many in liners feel comfortable to 150 yds. Some of you ML need to come down to SMN and shoot the shotgun season. If your shooting foster slugs through a smooth bore barrel, a 75 yard shot is difficult. You might see how much of an advantage you have using an inline. I have nothing against ML or inlines. I hope I didn't offend anybody with this. Just trying to put out some food for thought.

[JDM]

My whole point is that you go and tell the other guy that if he wants to use a scope on a muzzleloader, then he should leave his shot gun at home during the regular firearm season, like it will be some great advantage. Since I have made it clear that I am not a traditionalist, then I felt I should point it out to you that it is not an advantage over some shotguns. You must be fortunate enough to have very good eyes, evidenced by your 165 yard shot. I don't, but don't qualify for the non-magnified scope law. MN is only one of 13 states that does not allow scopes on muzzloaders. I hope this law changes, but in the mean time, I will still go with out a scope until it does and will have to stay within the limitations of my eye sight, not my equipment. I shoot quite a bit and I have no problems hitting anything within my personal range with open sights, but I also know that I am clearly an even better shot with a scope. More accurate shot = more effective kill. Period.

If they do allow scopes at some point, will it really have an effect on your own hunt if you chose not to use one?

[Whoaru99]

No, my point is that it's an advantage during ML season.

I believe part of why ML season is as long as it is, is because of the combination of "disadvantages" or restrictions placed on the ML.

If one has the ability to eliminate or reduce the number of "disadvantages" then perhaps the season length should be reconsidered.

It just seems that everyone wants to eat their cake and have it too.

I'm not going to try to bluff as some kind of traditionalist, I'm not. If scopes are legalized for ML season, I'll think seriously about adding one. However, I don't personally believe going without a scope is that much of a hindrance and that's coming from a guy who has the corrective lens restriction on my DL. I wouldn't even dare try to drive without them because I can't see worth a darn sans glasses.

So, I DO feel your pain about the eyesight thing. I probably have a fair shot at getting a waiver for a scope if I were to apply for one. Nothing worse than wearing glasses and having to deal with rain, snow, fogging, etc. But again, I think all that is part of why the season is what it is.

[lcornice]

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So, I DO feel your pain about the eyesight thing. I probably have a fair shot at getting a waiver for a scope if I were to apply for one.

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You can obtain a special permit to use a non-magnified scope during the muzzleloader season. The application is here:

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/rlp/licenses/hunting/res_muzzleloaderscope.pdf

Basically, you need to convince an optometrist that you have a visual impairment and need optics.

As for the larger question as to why DNR just doesn't do it. Unfortunately, it just doesn't work that way. The state legislature has pretty much weighed in on the debate and will make the ultimate determination. For example, last year the Senate proposed allowing scopes on muzzleloaders. As a counter, the House defined the muzzleloader season as flintlock or percussion only. When the Senate dropped the scope provision, the House dropped their language. So, if DNR were to make the change, it would be quickly nullifed (or changed) by the legislature. For whatever reason, there's a lot of interest on the part of our elected officials regarding scopes on muzzleloaders. I can't tell you how it'll go this year with the new change in leadership but it should be an interesting session.

Good luck!

[ScoutII]

Icornice: was wondering if I could hijack an opinion from you on the subject of smokeless powder? Sounds like you do a pretty good job at being informed.

[lcornice]

Sure, but I honestly don't know the thought process involved with the smokeless powder ban. The joke was 'when the smoke cleared at the end of the legislative debate on the muzzleloader season, smokeless powder was banned'. Sorry I don't have more information on how it came about.

[gorrilla]

You two guys with a 99 in your name, I think some of us DON'T think that ML w/ scopes should be limited to the firearms season. Nor should they shorten the season. If herd size/hunting pressure is your issue than perhaps tighter tag limits are in order. A seperate topic IMO.

I'm all for long seasons = more days in the woods. Lets stop restricting sights - its still one at a time, reload...

I'm also all for no party hunting bucks, a later gun season(outside the rut), and stop baiting...