20d is not living up to it's rep....

[MARINERMAGNUM]

was very excited about trying my new 20d today,but was disappointed. took many shots outdoors with/without filter. auto mode,av mode,p mode with iso at 400,tried diff. iso's,etc. all at 8 mp. was always a little out of focus thought it was maybe camera shake,so i put it on the tripod,took 3 shots,then put my sony dsc-h2 on the tripod,same 3 shots [both on auto mode with the timer] the sony just blew it away in sharpness and focus/detail quality. what is going on here?

[hobbydog]

Bad camera...take it back.

[Steve Foss]

Well, you may have to send it in, but let's not be too hasty.

Let's break it down.

Could be technique, but it sounds like you've got that nailed. Could be lens quality, because if you have the 18-55 kit lens it's not the sharpest. But even that "kit" lens should be giving you decent results.

Ummm, let's make sure it's the camera or the lens that's the problem. Soooo, one stupid question. Is the lens set to autofocus mode? Once in awhile when I come from shooting macro work, which usually works best on manual focus, I forget to flip the switch on the lens back from manual to autofocus and realize I'm taking blurry images because the lens isn't focusing on ANYTHING.

If that's the problem, then you're good. But if the lens was set on autofocus and you still had the problem, here's an experiment. Try putting a yardstick on the table and shooting it angling away from you with the camera on a tripod. See if any point on the yardstick gives you a sharp image. Go ahead and leave it as iso400, set it to P mode, pop up the flash and use the timer. That will auto set the shutter to 1/60 sec, plenty fast so a tripod will keep it like a rock and fast enough that mirror slap won't jar it.

If no point on the yardstick is sharp, then you've likely got a camera problem. If there's a sharp point but it's not where you focused, then it's a lens calibration problem and the lens needs servicing.

I know you got it used. You might check to see when the original owner bought it and if the one-year warranty, if it applies, transfers to you. But don't despair yet. It COULD be a case of buyer-beware the used product, but it's too soon to tell.

If you do this experiment and are satisfied, then it's all good. If it's still blurry, you can e-mail me an image and I'll look at it.

[MARINERMAGNUM]

it's on af. sometimes it will hit and do a fine image. i was taking a picture of an item,with the focus set on the center point,and there was an item next to it about 2 inches further away. the further away item i was not focusing at was crystal clear and the one i was focusing at was slightly blurred.

[Steve Foss]

OK, it's not a camera malfunction, then.

Which focus mode is the camera set to? Al servo will continually adjust focus at whichever focus point is selected. Al focus will retain focus on a specific point until it starts to move, and then track it like Al servo. One shot will allow you to lock focus on a specific point, keep the shutter held down half way and recompose before tripping the shutter.

If you have your camera on Al servo or Al focus and you focus on, say, a street sign and then move the camera to re-compose, it will automatically re-adjust focus on whatever is covered by the selected focus point, rendering your subject out of focus.

If you're set on one shot focus mode and the problem still exists, you either have a lens calibration issue or the lens focus-brain is very slow witted, a not-unheard-of circumstance when lenses fall within the "affordable" range.

Which lens are you using?

[MARINERMAGNUM]

the 18-55 kit lens. i'm loading a couple of pics. to show you now.

okay, this is the ruler. i was aiming at #7

here,i was aiming at the right box. it doesn't have much detail in my opinion. but it didn't focus on the further back box this time.

the camera is quick to focus,and everything seems to work great on it. maybe i am expecting too much from it?

[Steve Foss]

mm:

Well, in the first image, 7 seems the sharpest spot. In the second image, I don't understand what you mean about not much detail.

Are you shooting in jpeg mode with the 20D or RAW? How much in-camera processing do you have the 20D set for? Your sony all-in-one may be set to more in-camera processing than the 20D, so it looks off the bat like the the Sony's doing "better" than the 20D with sharpeness, contrast and color saturation. Check the 20D owner's manual to see how to alter these settings.

I shoot RAW all the time, and with RAW, there's virtually no in-camera sharpening, saturation and contrast. That means more post processing work, but also more potential for the image, ultimately. But even in you're shooting jpeg on the 20D, look at the manual to alter in-camera processing.

[Steve Foss]

mm:

These are the images you posted with a minimum of contrast, saturation and sharpening in pp. Because of the vagaries of various computer monitors, it may not seem much different on your screen, but it's significantly different on mine, and with very little pp.

[MARINERMAGNUM]

Steve,here is a pic. from the sony.

it looks to be just as good or better. it is a 1 mp. image the canon was a 2 mp.

don't get me wrong, i know the canon is a way better camera, but i thought maybe i had a lens problem. i have tried all parameters also.

[MARINERMAGNUM]

WOW! how'd you do that????

are you saying if i bump up all those settings in the 20d it will get closer to that? what software do you use? i have all the adobe stuff that came with it. canon stuff also. are you telling me i shoulduve bought a crappy camera and good software??

[Steve Foss]

mm, you don't have a camera problem. At most, you have a lens problem. I don't know how high-quality the glass is on your Sony, nor the comparative in-camera processing experiments you've tried. The image of the shell box with the Sony is sharper than with the Canon. That's a lens issue.

Again, if it's not an in-camera processing difference, it's a lens sharpness issue. The 18-55 is not a sharp, fine lens. If you can pick up the most inexpensive Canon brand 50mm lens, it'll knock the 18-55, and the Sony, into the dark ages. Primes are always sharper than zooms, and most Canon brand zooms are much better than the 18-55 kit lens, which is just marketed as a starter lens.

[Steve Foss]

OK, looks like we're posting across each other.

No, you should NEVER buy a crappy camera and great software. Buy an excellent camera and great software. You've just bought an excellent camera, and if you have any Adobe Photoshop version, whether Elements or Photoshop proper, you've got all the muscle you need.

Also, I recommend AGAINST heavy in-camera processing. There will come a time that, if you set it that way, you'll allow the camera to automatically overprocess an image that doesn't need it, and it'll be ruined from the start.

The simple things I did to your images can be accomplished by the most basic and cheap photo processing programs in existence, and almost all digital images need these things done.

Sharpening, saturation, contrast. But gently. Small steps, saving different versions as you go so that, when you cross the line, you have the previous version to go back to. And, of course, you NEVER over-write the original image.

[MARINERMAGNUM]

i was kidding about the crappy thing. i think i already hit on something though. the 18-55 is probably not much better than the sony's lens. but i crafted my own parameter on the 20d wow! now things are looking up! there are sooo many canon lenses! this hobby should get interesting! [$$$$$$$$$$$]

[Steve Foss]

Well, there you go. Glad to have helped. If you want a real fine zoom for half the price of the vaunted Canon 16-35 f2.8L, you can shell out $600 for the 17-40 f4L. Both are mighty sharp and rich and full of contrast, but of course the 17-40 is almost affordable. That's the wide-angle zoom I use, with the Canon 100-400L IS as my supertelephoto go-to lens.

Heck, you can get them both for $2,000. What's holding you back.

[MARINERMAGNUM]

i never said she was holding me back... oops!!

[MARINERMAGNUM]

almost forgot, THANKS STEVE!!

[Steve Foss]

Bubba, it's what I'm here for.

Your body (uh, I mean your camera) is excellent. For little money, relatively speaking, you can go to canoga camera (do the dot communist thing) and pick up a Canon 50mm f1.8 lens. Much sharper than the 18-55, and for a lot of what you'll want, you can use that 50mm and move in and out to achieve the compositions you're after. It's only $70. If you go to the site, click on lenses, then Canon, then fixed focal length for "general use" and page down until you find it.