Too high ph?

[Cooter]

Question for the food plot addicts: can the ph be too high for popular plantings? The reason being we got a 3 acre plot with a ph of 5.6 so that works out to about 2.5tons of lime per acre(if I remember right). But we can get a better deal with a full truckload of 10 tons - I'm not sure where the ph would end up at with 10 tons, but how high is too high? Thanks.

[Rolly22]

I'm not sure Cooter, but I think you can have soil that is too basic for certain species. How does lime store? You could keep the extra somewhere and use it on future food plots perhaps?

[PerchJerker]

I doubt you'll raise the ph above 7. I'd lime the heck out of it asap, then plant this fall.

[Dotch]

Cooter, if I understand what you wrote correctly you'd be applying 7.5 tons to 3 acres if going by the recommendation. In much of WI the soils should behave much as they do in the areas of MN east of I-35 so applying 10 ton across 3 acres should be fine. How high the pH ends up and how long it stays up depends on several factors including the soil buffer pH, the ENP (effective neutralizing power) of the lime, aggregate size range, etc., in addition to how much is applied. Even at 10 tons on your 3 acres, I doubt it would get over 7 which is a neutral pH. If it did get to 7, it wouldn't stay there long before starting to come back down. Here are some MN websites that might be helpful:

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/DC5957.html

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/DC5956.html

Otherwise Google Wisconsin Ag Lime Recs and you'll find all kinds of things to read. Hope this helps. Good luck!

[Cooter]

Thanks for the replies, guess its gonna boil down to if my uncle needs lime on any of his alfalfa, corn fields. For sure will do 7.5 tons for the 3 acre chunk. Also found out his neighbor can get it delivered and spread for $14/ton - are these prices similar to those in MN? Can't wait til planting time - will have some questions on apple trees I planted last fall coming soon. Later. Oh yeah, are we too far north for persimmon tress? (Eau Claire, Metro area)

[Dotch]

Cooter,

The price you got on ag lime is in the range of what we've been quoted here in MN when making crop budgets for guys whose fields call for it. Anywhere from about $10 - $15 per ton, delivered and spread, depending on how far from the quarry they have to haul it and what quality the lime is.

Persimmons, eh? The seed catalogs I have indicate zone 5 - 9 hardiness for those varieties listed. They should work on the WI/IL border area and along Lake Michigan according to their little color coded maps. Eau Claire is I believe in zone 4, probably a little too far north and too far in from the lake. While I have apple trees, am certainly no expert but will try to answer your questions if there's something I can help with.

[BIGSCHLAG]

When you get your soil test results back, they are for liming the top 3 or 4 inches. If you really can get the soil mixed up 6 or 7 you will be fine. One of the problems when you have a shallow lime depth is that when you plow, all the good soil gets buried. Over the long haul it is best to get the soil limed to at least 7 or 8 inches if possible. You really can't over lime too much, especially if you are planting anything that you have to add Nitrogen fertlizer. The nitrogen will slowly bring the ph back down.

[BIGSCHLAG]

I was so busy writing that I forgot the most important thing. The lime recommendation you got for 2.5 tons per acre, is the same as adding 5 tons of Ag lime. The ag lime is about 50% water by weight. There for you really are only getting 2.5 tons. The soil test assumes you are using 100% ENP lime. Ag lime is about 50% ENP. The people who are selling the Ag lime are required by law to tell you how potent it is. Most people think a ton is a ton, but that is not true. However pellet lime is 100% ENP because there is no moisture in it, but that is ussually only an option for very small places.

[Dotch]

Quote:

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I was so busy writing that I forgot the most important thing. The lime recommendation you got for 2.5 tons per acre, is the same as adding 5 tons of Ag lime.

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Respectfully disagree. Check the websites I posted above lest we completely confuse poor Cooter. Lime is still priced on a per ton basis. Reading the charts, if the rec calls for 2.5 ton per acre of ag lime or 2500 ENP, it has already been adjusted for moisture content. In MN, a rec from a soil test on a ton per acre basis assumes a ton of ag lime contains on average 1000 ENP. 100% ENP lime would contain 2000 ENP per ton. Many times the lime we're getting here in SC & SE MN contains far more ENP than the average. The quarry I checked the other day was over 1200 and over the years we've seen it range anywhere from 900 - 1400, depending on where the quarry is, where they're at in the quarry (purity), moisture content, etc. In those cases we adjust the tons per acre accordingly. The lime law and subsequent ENP in MN were a result of the need to evaluate non-traditional sources of lime such as boiler lime from power plants. ENP as such is not used in WI, Instead, they use a term known as NI or Neutralizing Index. Basically, NI is ENP divided by 20. Cooter's 2.5 ton per acre rec would be equivalent to 2500 ENP or a total NI of 125. The WI recs are made in tons per acre of either a 60 - 69 NI per ton ag lime or a 80 - 89 NI per ton ag lime.

A Wisconsin Soils HSOforum to clear up the confusion:

http://ipcm.wisc.edu/wcm/pdfs/2000/00-26Soils3.html

[Cooter]

Was down last night raking leaves off a woods plot and noticed our rye from last year is green and had 4 deer scarfing on it - tons of tracks. Its the second year rye has grown well so its an option for soil as low as 5.6

As far as lime, I thought you can usually get 2 varieties, something called 60.. and something called 80..? One is supposed to low ph a bit quicker?

[Cooter]

One more addition - I planted a couple Whitney crab apple trees last fall, they are just starting to bud. They are rated hardiness zone 3 so I hope they do well. Gonna do some more tree planting this spring yet also.

[Dotch]

Quote:

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Was down last night raking leaves off a woods plot and noticed our rye from last year is green and had 4 deer scarfing on it - tons of tracks. Its the second year rye has grown well so its an option for soil as low as 5.6

As far as lime, I thought you can usually get 2 varieties, something called 60.. and something called 80..? One is supposed to low ph a bit quicker?

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Rye is tough stuff, very winterhardy, and like most grasses, it can stand lower pH's than most legumes. Ah, you are a budding soil scientist Cooter. That's what I have one of my degrees in BTW. After doing some research to see how the 2 states compare, in WI they'll usually make 2 recs, one with lime using an NI (neutralizing index) of 60 - 69 and one with the 80 - 89 NI. The 60 category will take more per acre than the 80 and may take longer to achieve the same results. If it works like it does here in MN, the place where you buy your lime can tell you which category you're getting.

[Hotspotter]

Dotch:

Send me an email, address is at bottom.

Thanks!

Joel

[Dotch]

Joel,

You have mail...

[tripper]

cooter, I hope you are going to put protective tubing around the popular. The one and only time I saw it planted, instead of growing wild, here in MN the deer had all except a few of the seedling eaten by the next spring. That was on about a 20 acre opening.

[Cooter]

Come again Tripper. 'Popular' threw me off.

[tripper]

I most likely mistook your of popular planting to mean you were going to plant the tree. My mistake but your fault.lol

[Cooter]

Yep, I got the trunks wrapped to prevent rubbing but am gonna need something to keep those buggers from nibblin them to death.