Interesting footnote to 2005 season

[Commanche Jim]

Santana hasn't proven anything to me, other than a great REGULAR SEASON pitcher. Oswalt and Clements were great during the regular season........Not in the World Series. All Sox pitchers shined. I would take Garcia, Buehrle, Garland, or Contreras over Santana any day of the week.

Fishyguy..........every reference I made in this email was refering to the playoffs and world series....in fact, capital letters refering to "other than REGULAR SEASON".

I will make sure to spell everything out next time.....it's really cold up there this time of year and the blood's not flowing to the brain that well.

[Commanche Jim]

Joe,

You're saying our pitching didn't get us thru the playoffs? I think if you made that statement to anyone with baseball knowledge, they'd think you're wacked!

And our bullpen??????? Didn't Cotts win setup man of the year? And doesn't Jenks throw 100 mph?

Wow.......it's really cold up there.

[Commanche Jim]

This is what the Sox faced in the 1st round, and shut em down. .281 Team average, 199 Home Runs, 910 Runs

T. Graffanino .319

Johnny Damon .316

David Ortiz .300

Bill Mueller .295

Manny Ramirez .292

John Olerud .289

Jason Varitek .281

E. Renteria .276

Trot Nixon .275

Kevin Millar .272

This is what the Sox shut down in the ALCS: .270 Team average 147 Home Runs 761 Runs

Chone Figgins .290

Darin Erstad .273

G. Anderson .283

O. Cabrera .257

V. Guerrero .317

Adam Kennedy .300

Bengie Molina .295

Steve Finley .222

Juan Rivera .271

And World Series: .256 team average 161 home runs, 693 runs

Lance Berkman .293

Willy Taveras .291

O. Palmeiro .284

M. Ensberg .283

Jason Lane .267

Craig Biggio .264

Brad Ausmus .258

Jeff Bagwell .250

Chris Burke .248

Adam Everett .248

[Commanche Jim]

Rundrave,

Do think Santana would trade that Cy Young for a World Series Ring?

[fishyguy]

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Santana hasn't proven anything to me, other than a great REGULAR SEASON pitcher. Oswalt and Clements were great during the regular season........Not in the World Series. All Sox pitchers shined.

I would take Garcia, Buehrle, Garland, or Contreras over Santana any day of the week.

Fishyguy..........every reference I made in this email was refering to the playoffs and world series....in fact, capital letters refering to "other than REGULAR SEASON".

I will make sure to spell everything out next time.....it's really cold up there this time of year and the blood's not flowing to the brain that well.

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You questioned Santana's ability in the playoffs, I will grant you that. But I will stick with, "any day of the week" does refer to more than the playoffs. Did they call Reggie Jackson, "Mr. Any Day Of the Week" or was it "Mr. October"? If you want to stick to playoffs, you may want to rephrase your statement to "Any October".

I think if we all face facts you have a staff that had an incredible year from March to October but Garcia and Buerhle had as good of years as they ever have and Garland and Contreras had years no one ever expected. Ever hear the names Brady Anderson, Christian Guzman, Mickey Tettleton, Esteban Loiaza. The list could go on and on players who all had miraculous years once. Let's wait to see if this was all the stars aligning or an line up of stars.

[fishyguy]

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Rundrave,

Do think Santana would trade that Cy Young for a World Series Ring?

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What does that have to do with this discussion? A guy named Les Straker has a WS ring from the Twins in '87. Tim Laudner batted below the Mendoza Line and got a WS ring. I don't think it makes either of them worthy of a discussion about greatness.

[Commanche Jim]

# of wins since 2000

Buehrle 85

Garcia 82

Vazquez 75

Garland 64

SANTANA 59

Contreras 35

W's, baby..........that's what counts!!!!!!

[Commanche Jim]

1991 Chicago White Sox 17 10 3.41

1992 Chicago White Sox 20 10 3.18

1993 Chicago White Sox 22 10 3.37

Anyone know who's stats these are? Shouldn't be hard. He won a Cy Young.....had a couple good years. Is he mentioned in the same breath as any great pitchers or hall of famers? No.

Like I said, Santana has had a few good years, but he hasn't proven a thing. He's only won 59 games in 5 years!!!!! Didn't Estaban Loiaza win 21 games and lead the league in stikeouts a couple years ago?

Santana is currently one of the best in the game...Yes...but all of you are putting him on a pedestal like he's the best.

We'll see if he owns the Sox this year. If he does, that's not going to stop the Sox from rolling all over the Twins during the season.

[rundrave]

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# of wins since 2000

W's, baby..........that's what counts!!!!!!

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i guess you forgot that santana wasnt a starter all those years...hmm maybe the air errrr smog over there is getting pretty thin....

again as mentioned before you can keep painting a picture with your sox stats, and we could do the same for santana

bottome line, sox won WS last year, we realize that...duh...and i believe most of us came forward at the time and took our licks, if you want to keep playing the ws card everytime go ahead

I will also say that the sox dont even have a top 3 pitcher in the american league:

1.santana

2.holladay

3.colon

[Commanche Jim]

i guess you forgot that santana wasnt a starter all those years...hmm maybe the air errrr smog over there is getting pretty thin....

It's about time....I knew somebody would bring up that he hasn't been a full time starter...........so he's been a starter for only 2 years and he's the best ever?

You guys are like cub fans when Kerry Wood and Mark Prior came up. The next Roger Clemens or Nolan Ryan, right?

2.halladay....you think he's better than our guys? He hasn't pitched more than 142 innings since 2003. He's a big help on the DL (Wood/Prior). Everyone on our staff has at least 192 innings every year since 2001.

[Windy City Walleye Hunter]

Joe Stack,

You're right about the Sox bullpen, there are dozens of teams that are lining up to face a young horse throwing 100+ MPH with a curve ball that falls off the table and a change up to boot. I can see the teams just licking their chops at a chance to face "The Big Guy" Bobby Jenks. Ask Houston about his stuff, oh yea I forgot, they are a terrible hitting team. Better ask some other teams. See what they think about Jenks, then get back to us here in the Windy City.

YOU CAN PUT IT ON THE BOARD...YES!

PS You can ask them about Neil Cotts too. When was the last time he gave up an earned run?

[Windy City Walleye Hunter]

Rundrave,

Boy are you hot today! Look at how Santana and Halladay smoked the Sox in the playoffs, and look at how dominating Colon was vs the Sox in the ALCS, he really stepped up and showed what a stud, er dud, he was. Bottom line is that when the chips were all on the table the Sox pitching staff "had the nuts". Talk about studs, it don't get much better that that. And as for Commanche's stats about the other three pitching staffs who dominated, you can toss out Drysdale and Koufax since they no longer are pitching. But the third group contained Clemens and Pettite, how did those two studs do against the Sox in "the big dance"? I thought so...

YOU CAN PUT IT ON THE BOARD...YES!

Commanche, you have to give the Twinkie eaters something, so let them think they have the greatest pitcher ever to rub up a rosin bag, the only problem is this, I just checked the 2006 season schedule and it seems that the scheduler did something crazy...He scheduled the Sox and Twins to play 3 games in a row and sometimes 4 games in a row. I guess it is Santana and pray for three days of rain, or a leak in the "baggie dome". So we can all agree that the Twinks will beat the Sox in 25% of the games they will face them...I'll take that stat and you can build all the shrines and statues to the great YO-HAN. Just keep sending the rings and trophies to THE WINDY CITY baby!

[rundrave]

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You have to admit that Santana is better than any pitcher on your team, right? Dont give me any crazzy stats that you may dig up, or tell me who has more rings. Just tell me if you would pick him over any pitcher on your team.

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we got a little off course....can you just answer the original question?

[joe_stack20]

Dont they have a FishingIllinois site that you can post all your "fantastic white sox knowledge" on????? Because posting on a Minnesota site and, tellin minnesotans that there baseball player(s) really arent worth anything isnt prolly the smartest idea! Go Twins!!!

[Commanche Jim]

That question's a little vague..........would I pick him how? For a full season, for the playoffs, overall?

No, I would not pick him over Buehrle. Mark has proved to be VERY consistent for several years, more that Santana.

No, I would not pick him over Garland at this point because of Garland's breakout year and his potential. And he pitched EXTREMELY WELL in his first ever playoffs, that of a playoff experienced veteran.

No, I would not pick him over Garcia because of his proven consistency and a big time playoff pitcher.

Contreras and Vazquez........not sure........Contreras sure looked good at the end of the year and in the playoffs. I would possibly trade either one of these guys for Santana.

McCarthy.......NEVER........he's got a VERY BRIGHT FUTURE!!!!

We had 3 different pitchers awarded the Pitcher of the Month...........1st time since your twinkies did it in 1991.

[Commanche Jim]

Everyone on the FishingIL -baseball- site are biased. Most people on that site argue that Wood/Prior/Zambrano will be the Cubs' three man rotation this year and win 162 games between them.

[Down to Earth]

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That question's a little vague..........would I pick him how? For a full season, for the playoffs, overall?

No, I would not pick him over Buehrle. Mark has proved to be VERY consistent for several years, more that Santana.

No, I would not pick him over Garland at this point because of Garland's breakout year and his potential. And he pitched EXTREMELY WELL in his first ever playoffs, that of a playoff experienced veteran.

No, I would not pick him over Garcia because of his proven consistency and a big time playoff pitcher.

Contreras and Vazquez........not sure........Contreras sure looked good at the end of the year and in the playoffs. I would possibly trade either one of these guys for Santana.

McCarthy.......NEVER........he's got a VERY BRIGHT FUTURE!!!!

We had 3 different pitchers awarded the Pitcher of the Month...........1st time since your twinkies did it in 1991.

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Jim, aren't you being a bit contradictory in your reasons between Buerhle and McCarthy? On one hand you say you wouldn't want Santana over Buerhle because he hasn't been around enough, but then in McCarthy you saying you wouldn't because of McCarthy's "Bright Future". Yet what has McCarthy done? I've followed McCarthy since last Spring Training and feel he a a great prospect for the Sox, but you and Windy have pretty much annointed him with a future Cy Young award when all he has done is pitch a handful of starts at the end of last season. At least, Santana has one aleady.

Personally, I think Buerhle and Santana are pretty equal and excellent overall pitchers and its probably splitting hairs on who is better. You can spin numbers for either one I'm sure, it just depends on who your favorite team is.

It would've been interesting to see how Santana would have faired last year with the White Sox run support. I don't know how many games he pitched in where the Twins would score less than 3 runs in. He probably would have been a 20+ game winner in Chicago.

[fishyguy]

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That question's a little vague..........would I pick him how? For a full season, for the playoffs, overall?

No, I would not pick him over Buehrle. Mark has proved to be VERY consistent for several years, more that Santana.

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You are right. In his 5 primary seasons as a starter he has averaged 16 wins and a 3.63 ERA. That would be a off year for Johan. Kyle Lohse is pretty consistent also but I don't think anyone wants him.

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No, I would not pick him over Garland at this point because of Garland's breakout year and his potential. And he pitched EXTREMELY WELL in his first ever playoffs, that of a playoff experienced veteran.

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If 18-10 with a 3.50 ERA is a breakout year than what did was Johan's 20-6 with a 2.61 ERA. They are the same age. They both have proven well in there most recent playoff showings. Why can't you see that from both sides?

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No, I would not pick him over Garcia because of his proven consistency and a big time playoff pitcher.

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His wins in his 7 seasons have ranged from 13-18 per year. Fairly consistent. His ERA from 3.05 - 4.51, while only twice being under 3.87. It might be consistent but I don't think it makes him a top five or top ten pitcher that Johan is. His playoff #'s are solid. I will give you that.

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Contreras and Vazquez........not sure........Contreras sure looked good at the end of the year and in the playoffs. I would possibly trade either one of these guys for Santana.

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There is the reason you are a bar owner and not a major league GM. You are welcome to join any of my fantasy and rotisserie leagues any time you would like. It would be like free money with those kind of moves. Thanks though, it has been a tough week and I needed a laugh.

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McCarthy.......NEVER........he's got a VERY BRIGHT FUTURE!!!!

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That is a matter of philosophy but he has not proven anything to be included in the conversation with any of these guys.

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We had 3 different pitchers awarded the Pitcher of the Month...........1st time since your twinkies did it in 1991.

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But don't forget Johan got 3 all by himself in 2004.

[Commanche Jim]

Down to Earth,

I hear what you're saying.......It's a tough decision between McCarthy and Santana.....McCarthy looked awesome after his return from the minors after the all star break. Here's his #'s:

ERA W L IP H R ER HR BB SO BAA

1.69 3 1 42.2 31 8 8 5 8 31 .201

Those are very impressive. If that's his future, I would take McCarthy. He's 6 foot 7, and only 22.

IF that's his future.

[Down to Earth]

Which is why I was surprised they went out and signed Vazquez. I'm mean there was already talk last Spring training about McCarthy making the squad and with what he showed in the second half of last season I have a hard time seeing him going back to minors if he repeats his performance this Spring. Somebody on that staff is going to be headed to middle relief as I don't think they will be going with a 6 man rotation.

[Commanche Jim]

Fishy,

Johan has only been a full time starter for 2 seasons!!! He's started 108 games in 5 years.

{There is the reason you are a bar owner and not a major league GM. You are welcome to join any of my fantasy and rotisserie leagues any time you would like. It would be like free money with those kind of moves. Thanks though, it has been a tough week and I needed a laugh.}

What's so funny about that? Don't you think that would be a good trade for the Sox? I would be willing to part with Vazquez or Contreras for Santana......but when's Santana's contract up, and what will he be demanding?

Let me join your fantasy league.

And, actually, being a bar owner is pretty much a side job (tax shelter). I have interest in 6 companies. Maybe I work for the White Sox.........

[Down to Earth]

Jim,

You'd get Santana for 3 more years before having to ante up again. He just signed a 4 yr/40 million deal last year. If he continues to pitch at the level he's been at the last 2 years for the remaining 3 it will be interesting to see if they will be able to resign him. Of course, a lot can happen in three years. Though for some reason, they have no problem keeping Radke around at an inflated salary.

[Commanche Jim]

So, Fishy, not to be funny....yes, I would rather keep all of our guys in lieu of Santana's $10 mil a year.

[rundrave]

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So, Fishy, not to be funny....yes, I would rather keep all of our guys in lieu of Santana's $10 mil a year.

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$10mil a year is to much for santana but your paying $9.6 for garland he has a 3yr $29mil, for that price santana hands down!

[Commanche Jim]

That's one more year, and 11 more million that could go bad.