blind retrieves?

[crappiescout]

I own a chocolate lab who is by far the best retriever i've ever seen! but I dont know where to start on how to get her to do a blind retrieve.any tips? thanks

[MikeYager - Suzuki]

I started mine by yelling "back" and running with her then dropping a dummy for her to pick up. Eventually she would go without me running with her. From there the rest is history. She picked up quick and I transitioned easy to water. I worked on directions seperately about the same way using both my arm to single and a command word like right for right and over for left. Again I ran her through the motions unitl she got it and would do it without me. That's what worked for me. It's important to always have something for them at the end of the retrieve. For my I only send her as far as I can throw a dummy past her once she's out a ways. I don't duck hunt so I doubt I will ever fine tune any further.

[IainG]

Blinds are very easy to build to - whether water or land. I will just deal with a starting concept here. We are assuming you have a dog that will retrieve and fetch.

You initially want to build from "pattern blinds" or a known entity for the dog. Take and setup a pile of 4 or 5 bumpers. (The term pile is actually incorrect - you want them separated by 2 - 3 feet. Use a format like a number 5 dice.)

Take your dog and have a starting point about 25 yards away. Walk with your dog and throw another bumper into the pile and then walk back to your starting point. Line your dog up at heel towards the pile and give the "back" command. Keep sending the dog back until he has picked them all up.

Build the dogs confidence. Fairly quickly you won't need to throw one into the pile. Use several different pile locations and then progressively move your starting line back.

From there before you move onto "cold" setups, you need to build some handling. You do that by having 3 piles setup - one back 25 yards, one to the left 25 yards, one to the right 25 yards. Have you dog sit at the intersection of the "T". Use your arm up and send the dog "back" to the back pile. Use your arm out to the left and "over" the dog to the left pile ...

Combine the pattern blinds and mini "T" to build to more difficult situations.

Again, it is all about confidence. Read your dog. Don't stress it.

Water has a bit more complexity to it due to the desire to cheat and bank run. Get the land going well first.

[Fishook]

I don't know if I am allowed to do this but here goes. I am going to suggest you get a copy of a book by Richard Wolters called "Water Dog". I have been using this book since 1982 and I use it yet today. It is a common sense approach to just about every aspect of retriever training and the best part is IT WORKS if you are willing to put in the time! I am sure there are many other good books out there as well but this one is very simple to follow and implement. It might help with other training elements as your dog progresses.

[IainG]

Fishhook.

Wolters book was interesting in it's time and certainly provoked some changes in attitude. If you want a "complete library" it & Gun Dog would have their place and would be worth the read. Having said that it is VERY dated. (Hint - check the year it was authored.)

There are much better methods which have evolved since. Two excellent authors would be Mike Lardy (Lardy reprints Volume 1 & 2) and Evan Graham (SmartWorks I & II).

[LABS4ME]

Ian... while Wolter's methods may not be the "most up to date" in the realm of retriever training, the use of his books have helped many a hunter transform their otherwise "unfinished" dogs to move up to the next level. It is what 80% of hunters would like to have for their dogs and it is a fairly simple approach. I can list several other books that have been written in which I still employ portions of their training techniques and these books are no longer in print. I am in no way implying that books written by trainers in the forefront of trialing today (ie. Lardy etc) are not worth the read, but they are generally using methods and expectations that are far beyond what the average hunter is looking for. A lot of guys still do not employ the use of the e-collar, and that in itself would be argument enough to follow Wolters. Training principles and practices for the most part are timeless, they can be refined and improved, but the old methods will still work if followed.

Good Luck!

Ken

[IainG]

Labs4me. I agree that Wolters has had and continues to have a very positive influence in the training of dogs. His methods simplified training and started better standards at an earlier age.

Having said that, I would contend that the methods of Lardy, Graham and others are taking things to a still better and more simplistic level. And you do not need to use an e-collar to employ their methods. I personally do not employ an e-collar until a dog is around 18 months of age, and use it only minimally for reinforcing what the dog already knows well. And the 18 months doesn't mean I am being slow about my training. I run dogs at AKC and APLA at the Masters levels and am typically getting lower titles on my dogs by 8 months.

I think the majority of people do not have the time nor the inclination to train dogs to the higher levels. And the vast majority hunt and do not participate in the "doggy games". For those people, (and for the trialers) efficiency with your time is important. Wolters revolutionized that. But I think that Lardy's or Graham's methods are more productive and their flow charts more clearly define a succesful training program. (Their programs are quite similar which is no coincidence since they had the same mentor.)

I also agree with you that there have been lots of excellent books out there from which one can glean information. Many of us have the good fortune and the time to indulge in extensive libraries. Most do not, and thus when we are asked to recommend a single book or author it is usually one of the above two - but with the caveat that don't use the e-collar.

Just my opinion, and as my wife points out I am frequently wrong!

[LABS4ME]

I agree 100% with your post, just wanted to clarify that for the "average" guy Wolters is still a reasonable approach. I agree that others have moved the bar as far as training. One fault I do have with Wolters is, he doesn't explain to you how to get out of jams or over obstacles, he also has a "timeline" that is suppose to be met, giving you the idea that if you don't meet these guidelines his training ideas will not work. All in all, I do as you stated, read as many books as possible and conform the training to suit each dog.

Good Luck!

Ken

p.s. tell your wife you were right!

[MikeYager - Suzuki]

I have Wolters books and they were very helpful. The main point I got from the books was you can teach your dog almost anything with patience and a simplistic approach based on repetition. I have had great success training my dog and do not use an e-collar. I feel the main reason I've had such success is the dog itself. I was lucky. She is smart, willing to please/learn and has good hunting instinct. My last dog was a dud. Not as smart but okay however she had literally no hunting drive and was afraid of water!! A stronger person would have put her down but she was part of the family and took the role of just a good pet. I'm speaking of goldens which relates to a different thread.

[fwp]

Scout, you had some good advice on sources. Lardy is one of the best and Wolters is and will be for a long time to come a standard always worth reviewing. Remember that teaching a dog to handle to blind retrieves is the single most time consuming and patience requiring component of a dogs lifelong training. I have seen to many people with really good retrievers get to this part of the training and expect way to much from the dog way to soon! Be patient and your good dog will be even better! Good Luck!