Amaize.com

[Bondo]

I have a 7 month old yellow lab and had her spayed at the end of December. While she was under the Vet checked her hips and adv that the right one is more loose then they would like to see and that she might have dysplasia. When I voiced my concern to my vet and told him how much money I plan on investing in her, he told me to go w/ the flow and it would be up to her. He said that if it were his dog he would still train her. Her bloodline has never had a hip problem and I personally know my breeder. My first question is it possible to diagnos this when the my pups joints haven't fully grown in the first place? My second question has anyone ever heard of the dog supplement Amaize? My breeder advised me of it and said he had success.

[scotty18]

Did the vet x-ray the hips or just wiggle them around? You need to have them x-rayed and read by a expert, the U of M is best! I've been though this. Some vets will feel their hips, look at the back and pass jugdement. Don't fall into this trap.

Scotty

[Bondo]

He wiggled her hips first and then after feeling the one loose, took xrays. He advised to have an ortho surgeon look at xrays. I thought he was nuts. I have dislocated shoulders and finally had surgery on my rt but when I would do it back in Highschool I remember my ortho telling me my joints haven't grown together and they couldn't tell until they did. My breeder admitted it can happen but he has never heard of such a diagnosis at her age and he has been in the business 25 years.

[LABS4ME]

Bondo...1st off, evaluating hips at 7 months will hold very little water. Most vets will tell you to do a prelim. at a year after they are finished growing. If the dog was sedated when he did his "wiggle" there's a fighting chance they would feel loose. If a female is coming into a heat cycle their hips naturally are loose due to their harmones. If the hips prelim. good to excellent, chances are they will not change when you can do your OFA evaluation. If they are fair of poor at 12 months you may have issues. At 7 months the dogs skeleton has not even finished growing, so to do an evaluation on something that is in flux really makes no sense. I do feel the prelim. x-ray at 12 months is well worth the money, this way you know what you are dealing with before you get to far into training...especially if you are using a pro.

If you really want to know where your dog stands, take her into Dr. Fran Smith of Smith veterinary clinic in Burnsville (952.736.8278)tell her Ken Owl told you to come, and discuss your situation. She is one of the top Lab breeders and is known and respected nationally. She has written many papers on inherited disorders in animals and can answer just about any question you pose to her. She is on the board of OFA and though her evaluation in the office isn't your official evaluation from the current panel reviewing films, she nails it 98 out of 100 times. I just had a dog in there yesterday and she is confident her hips are excellent and elbows clear. We discussed how a pup of mine from a litter 5 years ago (out of clear stock) shows mild dysplasia in one hip, yet all the other pups (incl. the one she got from me) are clear. To say there is no dysplasia in a dog's lines isn't really possible. You can have all clear dogs in the pedigree and the more generations of clear to clear, the more you greatly lessen the chance the disease will manifest itself, but the reality is, ALL dogs carry dysplasia genes and though a small chance (in multiple clear to clear breedings) all retrievers have the risk of contracting it. The amount of genes the parents carry and more importantly the amount of the dysplasia genes given to their offspring determines if they will or won't have dysplasia. It is not a recessive gene so one parent can greatly influence the outcome of their progeny.

As far as Amaize...talk to Fran about that and Cosimene (sp?). She can lead you to a good supplement that would be beneficial to your dog if there is a problem.

The dog with the hip problem I just stated will probably live out a normal life. She doesn't show clinical signs of dysplasia, but her films confirm she has a bad hip. She belongs to my other vet and he uses Rymidal (sp?) when out hunting and cosimene (sp?) day to day to keep the cartlidge in tact on that hip. When he's ready in the future he will be getting a pup from me. That's the way the guarantee should work... As breeders we don't like to see it happen but we should stand by our dogs, This is the only pup I know of out of my last 4 litters with a hip problem, so it shows that even if you think it can't happen there is always that slight chance it will.

Good Luck with your dog....

Ken

[Bondo]

Thank you both for the replies. I will definitly contact Dr. Fran Smith when my pup is 12 months. I have only had her since July and I am already very attached to her.

[duckbuster]

LABS4ME: Boy your guarantee sure is lenient. I don't think I have ever seen a guarantee where the owner of the dog with bad hips gets to keep the dog then gets it replaced at his/her discretion. The guarantee's that I see are generally stated as, The dog is replaced or the purchase price is refunded shortly after the negative results come back, with the owner sending the "bad" dog back to the breeder.
That is awful nice on your part to let the owner keep the dog for as long as he/she wants then have it replaced.

How was fishing this past weekend?

[LABS4ME]

Hey D.B., Fishing was awesome (short though, only 1 night up) when we gonna get you up there?

My guarantee is actually 36 months, but at my discretion I'll make changes as needed. Luckily I haven't had to utilize the guarantees much over the last 10 years. I also give the option to keep the dog and get 1/2 off a future pup, but in this case i'm just going to replace the pup when he's ready. No sense putting down a "good" dog. She really isn't showing outward signs, and I hate to see them have to put her down when there is no reason to right now, plus they got 4 kids...couldn't expect them to lose their pet just so Pops can start his next hunting dog. I'll stand by this breeding as a very isolated incident, and hopefully go another 10 years before I have to make another decision on a guarantee! They will not be breeding her.

Good Luck! Ken

[duckbuster]

Hey LABS: Unfortunately I will not be up fishing until 2-28-04 with my 7 yr. old daughter. I will be back up on the 12th and 13th of march with 3 other buddies. Any big ones or just alot of nice eaters?

[LABS4ME]

Biggest last weekend was (2) 15 1/4"...Still looking for a couple 16's for the wall. Been throwing those over 14" back and trying to keep some of 12-13s. I actually think they taste a lot better and going up every 2 weeks I only need 5 for a meal, so I was pretty selective on what I keep. Keep in touch...I may have my 6 year old up around that time too...wait till you see the walleyes this year! Unbelievable! 2006 will be something else. Had a friend get a 29" a couple weeks back.

Good Luck! Ken

[scotty18]

Labs4me, I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain a little. You always have great answers when it comes to dogs. My Llewellin developed a overbite. His bottom jaw has grown to lessen the gap over the last 2 months. We first noticed the overbite in training. I read that puppies with overbites, the bottom jaw will continue to grow as the puppy grows, making it possible to grow out of the overbite. what's you take on this? His overbite isn't bad enough to become a health problem or hinder picking up birds. People have been asking me if I would ever breed him. I've thought about it, but does the overbite pass through breeding?
Also you've read about my lab. I still have doubts about my vets diagnoses. She found the displasia on a x-ray done for a bladder infection. I've always been told most vet don't have the expertees to diagnose hip displasia, to have the x-rays read by a expert in the field. I've asked to get more x-rays done and have them sent out. My dog has perfect mobilty and I guess I'd like a second opinion. Do you think it would be worth going to the vet you name above. I would like to be able to hunt her again. My kids can take this lab to lake and swin with her for hours with no problems. The new trainer I use says we can get her back into hunting shape with no problem if she's ok.

Thanks, Scotty

[scotty18]

Ken, thanks for the reply. I will be calling Dr. Smith on monday. When the vet in question told us about our lab, she said NO HUNTING AND NO SWIMMING. I have questioned this, but the clinic we go to has a different vet everytime we go.
It just breaks my heart when I walk out the door with my Llewellin and leave the lab at home. You can just see in her eyes how much she wants to go. Anyhow I'm setting up a appointment and find out for sure.

Thanks again. I have learned so much on this forum.
Scotty

[LABS4ME]

Scotty...Unfortunatley I am not well versed on "bite" issues with dogs. It's not real predominate in field Labs, I've only seen it once and it was actually an underbite. What little I do know is it usually removes the dog from breeding considerations, (show people especially check this out), and I believe it is an inherited disorder. I may be wrong so I'd double check my answer....

Here's what I'd do. Call Dr. smith up and make an appt. to do your Labs hips. In the process of talking to her about your lab, bring up the over bite question to her. She will definitley be able to answer your questions. I'd even have the dog with in the truck, so if she wants to look at it, you'd have her right there, no need for another appt. I really feel you'd be hard pressed to find a vet with as much knowledge as Fran. You'll know exactlly where you stand with your lab when you walk out of her office. I kept a dysplastic lab once and from my personal experience, the more you swim them and the more you keep their muscle mass up, the less problems you have with the hip. She hunted with me till I lost her at 10 years old to Lymphoma. Swimming is very easy on the joint, but does wonders for the muscles, the muscles will take some of the load off the hip joint. I would still work with this dog even if the hips are indeed dysplastic. The only time I'd lay off is if she is in pain. I feel they are happier animals when we use them to their potential, and she'll have a fuller life. If she has dysplasia, talk to Fran about Rymidal (?). It may help to get a few more years out of your dog.

Good Luck with your findings...hope all turns out well and you get the news you want!

Ken