Posting Land/Handling Trespassers and Neighbors

[BobT]

As he is legally able to do according to the statutes. If it is not posted as required by law, one is able to access it.

I haven't commented on this thread yet but will now that I have read it all. I for one will not enter posted land whether or not it appears to be posted according to the letter of the law. Would just as soon avoid the confrontation that is likely to occur as a result of it.

However, as a hunter I would sure appreciate it if land owners DID post their land according to the law. Makes it much easier if you slap your name and number on there so I can locate you easily to seek permission. If you take just a little time as a landowner to add that info, I think you will see a few less people going on your land without talking to you. Most hunters aren't out there looking for a sign that doesn't comply exactly with the letter of the law. They just want to be able to seek and gain (or be denied) permission in a timely manner that doesn't mean running around from house to house, to internet GIS data, to plat book to try to figure out who they need to talk to. I know it bums me when I find an old shredded posted sign, sometimes just small pieces left hanging at the stapled corners or even just the board the sign was once attached to, and I can't find the landowner. To me, that looks like the land used to be owned by someone who posted it or it is currently owned by someone who really doesnt care too much about the land usage. But still, I stay off because the confrontation that I fear could occur.

I think it is pretty simple for both sides, and no one should have any issues with doing their part in this. Hunters just ask that landowners who wish to deny access make it be known via well marked boundaries with contact information listed. And for those landowners who wish not be bothered, purchase signs that say so or write in "Do not bother to ask permission".

Landowners are simply asking hunters to stay out without permission, and the obvious way to do so is to post your land and add your info if all you truly want from us hunters is to politely ask permission. Why not make it easy for us to do so? Hell, if posting is a big chore ask the hunters who you give permission every year to help upkeep the posted signs. I know I would be more than happy to do that for any landowner who lets me hunt year to year. It's the least I could do to say thanks.

My opinion is that it isn't too much to ask to just post the land clearly if you don't want people on it. The ones who will continue to trespass if the land is clearly marked are the ones who are gonna do whatever the hell they want to do regardless of posted signs or statutes. I'll continue to stay off your land even if you have shredded old posted signs that aren't legible, but that's because of what I was taught growing up. If it isnt yours, don't mess with it. However, according to the statutes, how I read them anyway, I'm able to enter your non-ag land if you don't have it posted legibly. As a landowner, do yourself a favor and don't rely upon every hunter out there to be the most ethical, respectful, patient person in the world. Just follow the law and post it, just like you want the hunters to follow the laws and not trespass.

Thank you for posting.

[mntatonka]

I would think that people, especially in Minnesota, would have the respect (and the common sense) to not enter someone's property without asking first, regardless of reason why. I usually don't give a hoot if you're on the land, but at least ask first in case there's a reason you shouldn't be, or areas you should stay out of for various reasons.

[leechlake]

here is my thought any time I see or hear of trespassing:

You and three buddies decide to buy 200 acres of hunting land somewhere. You spend $200,000 and build a little hunting shack and make a few plots and build some stands for deer hunting. You spend a lot of money, time, and effort for your new little piece of heaven. You decide not to hunt it after Oct 15 for grouse to let the deer settle down. You have it posted properly by the way. Friday of opener you get up there at noon and unpack all you gear for deer season #1. Your own little honey hole. At 3pm you hear some shots and go out on your land and three guys with 2 dogs are grouse hunting on your land. They tell you "we always hunted it when the Johnson's owned it, thought it would still be okay since we hadn't seen anyone up here since Mid October." You now are depressed, mad, and wondering why you spent $200,000 so you could have your own hunting land.

Don't buzz kill others and don't trespass.

[brittman]

Harvey - I feel for you, but something is just not right. Maybe the current regs on the posting not being perfect to be lawful is new.

I worked with Tim long, long time ago on some poaching and illegal fishing things that I witnessed. He seemed OK, but again that was a long, long time ago.

Sometimes tresspassers that are local have ties to county power (judges, prosecutors, etc) are able to by-pass what would seem to be a normal open-and-shut case. Prosecuting locals for tresspass on Nonresident owned land may be difficult.

USF&WS have similar problems when their cases go to county court. That is why many Federal Wardens often prefer the case go through the Federal Court system.

[brittman]

here is my thought any time I see or hear of trespassing:

You and three buddies decide to buy 200 acres of hunting land somewhere. You spend $200,000 and build a little hunting shack and make a few plots and build some stands for deer hunting. You spend a lot of money, time, and effort for your new little piece of heaven. You decide not to hunt it after Oct 15 for grouse to let the deer settle down. You have it posted properly by the way. Friday of opener you get up there at noon and unpack all you gear for deer season #1. Your own little honey hole. At 3pm you hear some shots and go out on your land and three guys with 2 dogs are grouse hunting on your land. They tell you "we always hunted it when the Johnson's owned it, thought it would still be okay since we hadn't seen anyone up here since Mid October." You now are depressed, mad, and wondering why you spent $200,000 so you could have your own hunting land.

Don't buzz kill others and don't trespass.

Agree grouse hunters on the eve of deer opener is not a good situation ....

All said, bet you letting the land rest 20 days makes no difference at all. Deer learn to move around grouse hunters, walkers, and foresters/loggers. If the property is quiet for 20 days and then human scent is there ... may cause more alarm.

Human traffic also will keep the wolves from establishing base camp on your property. Sure they will still wonder through, but the last thing you want is wolves establishing their core area right in the middle of your deer property.

[leechlake]

I knew that my post would end up hacking on the Oct 15th rest time...probably not my point though. I will edited it that no one hunts it the first ten years so it makes more sense.

[deerminator]

I didn't miss the statutes the first time. I've read them. Lots of good info on how to legally post. Problem is, many interpret that as a legal right to tresspass if someone doesn't post. What many conveniently seem to ignore is the fact that nowhere in the statutes does it explicitly say you can enter someone else's land without their consent unless they've posted it. Nowhere. I do see numerous instances of language saying you are trespassing if you don't first ask for permission or gain consent. And this is probably why the DNR, along with numerous law enforcement agencies in brochures related to hunting, make the claim that if you don't first ask for permission, you are trespassing. Period.

[harvey lee]

Harvey - I feel for you, but something is just not right. Maybe the current regs on the posting not being perfect to be lawful is new.

I worked with Tim long, long time ago on some poaching and illegal fishing things that I witnessed. He seemed OK, but again that was a long, long time ago.

Sometimes tresspassers that are local have ties to county power (judges, prosecutors, etc) are able to by-pass what would seem to be a normal open-and-shut case. Prosecuting locals for tresspass on Nonresident owned land may be difficult.

USF&WS have similar problems when their cases go to county court. That is why many Federal Wardens often prefer the case go through the Federal Court system.

I do not own this land, friend of mine does and he also does not live in ND, absent owner and I take care of and watch over the ranch while he is not there.

Few years ago I had these 5 prosecuted as I was tired of asking people to please ask before they walk past the no hunting or trespassing signs. I would call the CO Tim Phalen and he would come down and one day I called Tim and he said unless you prosecute them, this will never end. Tim said I can come over and chase them off but they will come back more than likely.

Tim said if you prosecute them, that word will get around and sooner or later, people will know those signs mean what they say. I guess some feel I like putting them all up almost every year as many are just ripped of the fence post and they come in, Tim said if they do not see a sign, they just walk in. Can't prove who tore the sign down so come on in.

Since that time, it has gotten better as they were locals from not far away.

It seems that when people are in the Sheyenne National Grasslands, they feel they can cross a fence line as they think they are still on Federal property.

I can post the land legally by ND laws but that does not work for us.

If there is not a gate for 200-300 yards, they do not see it so they cross the fence and hunt, reason why I put signs up maybe every 200ft or so along with all corner posts and gates.

If I do not post that heavy, well, most everyone simply comes in.

I let 8-10 people in the area hunt I know and they all are as good as can be but trying to keep others out in this area is not a small task.

IF I wanted to keep all out, one would have to ride the fences all day on the wheeler and then one would still not get that job done. Impossible to keep others out almost.

I would say you would have to be there and see it to believe it.

I always wonder when I find a gut pile how they came in, shot a deer and got it out of there without anyone seeing but when we are not there that much, I guess fairly easy.

It has gone so far, I got a call from a fellow I gave permission to hunt to see when I was coming up to hunt as he wanted to hunt. I said it is fine you go as he is a quad but please only your brother with to help as he needs help to load a deer. I always kind of thought the guy was taking friends with to hunt so the last time he called, I jumped in my truck, drove 260 miles to the place and went to the area he likes to hunt. There was his pickup with 5 others and they were loading the last of the 5th buck.

Needless to say, he is no longer hunting the place.

After 3 or more issues like that, it kinda turns one off in regards to others coming out to hunt, to bad for all the ones that are honest people but what can one do.

[PFUNK]

It doesn't have to explicitly state that you can enter posted land without permission. It states that you can't enter posted land that is posted according to the subdivisions stated (i.e. According to the posting requirements regarding lettering, signature or contact info, etc). There are legal obligations the landowner has to follow when he posts his/her land if he wants to keep you off and prosecute you if you do not stay off. Yes, it is not ethical to go on land without permission, I agree. But it is going to be almost impossible for a landowner to prosecute someone unless they do THEIR part when it comes to posting and following the laws. My opinion is simply that if a landowner does his part, he can absolutely 100% expect everyone to stay off his land without permission, as it is illegal (by the letter of the law) for anyone to access his land without permission. If the landowner doesnt follow the law regarding posting, then he/she shouldnt be surprised when he/she can't prosecute a "trespasser".

[harvey lee]

My opinion is simply that if a landowner does his part, he can absolutely 100% expect everyone to stay off his land without permission, as it is illegal (by the letter of the law) for anyone to access his land without permission. If the landowner doesnt follow the law regarding posting, then he/she shouldnt be surprised when he/she can't prosecute a "trespasser".

PFUNK

Well PFUNK, we over post and I will say one cannot absolutely expect 100% to stay off, I would say 75% stay off at best from my experience in the last 20 years or so. I believe the trespasser we have are pretty sure they will not get caught while on the land trespassing.

WE cannot watch every section of land so one knows there is most always someone trespassing, all one would have to do is hop on the wheeler and go search them out. But, if you do that, no time left for ones own hunting so some just get to walk past the signs and hunt, that's the way it is, at least in our area. Our neighboirs have the same issues.

The guy who owns this ranch does not care for trespassers at all and if you were to get caught by him, I know he would take your gun and send you on your way. The last guy he caught years ago, he took his rifle, and said if you want it back, go to the CO and have him come down with you and then you can get your gun and a trespassing ticket, the guy never came back for his gun. This is no talk.

[PFUNK]

Harvey, when I say you can "expect" 100% of people to stay off your land I guess I meant that you can expect that NO ONE can LEGALLY access your land. I simply meant that you have fulfilled your legal requirements as a landowner. Having said that, you will likely still have some morons who blatantly trespass and disregard the law. You are unlikely to catch all of them in the act, but there isnt a single thing that can be done about that. No law or statute can help you there. BUT, if you do catch someone, at least you can prosecute them and that will make them think twice next time.

In the meantime, your thorough posting job that follows the letter of the law will be appreciated by MANY, including myself. It makes it much easier for us as hunters to seek the permission you want us to seek as landowners. It's that simple. Help us help you.

[leechlake]

a guy I've hunted with was blind to trespassing signs for years until he got caught and prosecuted. Had to go to court pay fine etc. He 100% does not anymore.

[cherokee]

I think some need a little educating - A no trespassing sign does not have to have the full name and phone number - A signature only is fine (see i) below and does not have to have full name a phone number.

(i) are signed by the owner, occupant, lessee, or authorized manager; or

(ii) include the legible name and telephone number of the owner, occupant, lessee, or authorized manager; and

(4) either:

(i) are at intervals of 1,000 feet or less along the boundary of the area, or in a wooded area where boundary lines are not clear, at intervals of 500 feet or less; or

Trespassers miss this as well

(ii) mark the primary corners of each parcel of land and access roads and trails at the point of entrance to each parcel of land except that corners only accessible through agricultural land need not be posted.

[PFUNK]

I think some need a little educating - A no trespassing sign does not have to have the full name and phone number - A signature only is fine (see i) below and does not have to have full name a phone number.

(i) are signed by the owner, occupant, lessee, or authorized manager; or

(ii) include the legible name and telephone number of the owner, occupant, lessee, or authorized manager; and

(4) either:

(i) are at intervals of 1,000 feet or less along the boundary of the area, or in a wooded area where boundary lines are not clear, at intervals of 500 feet or less; or

Trespassers miss this as well

(ii) mark the primary corners of each parcel of land and access roads and trails at the point of entrance to each parcel of land except that corners only accessible through agricultural land need not be posted.

Yes, the signature is perfectly fine as well. I kept referencing name and phone number as that is the one that I feel makes it easier for the hunter to seek permission.

[cherokee]

Pfunk I include myself in that needing an education part as I always thought I had to print, sign, date, provide phone number etc. on my signs. It's always good to reread the regs every year.

It is nice to have a name and number on sign though in case one wants to get a hold of the land owner for any reason.

[deerminator]

It doesn't have to explicitly state that you can enter posted land without permission. It states that you can't enter posted land that is posted according to the subdivisions stated (i.e. According to the posting requirements regarding lettering, signature or contact info, etc). There are legal obligations the landowner has to follow when he posts his/her land if he wants to keep you off and prosecute you if you do not stay off. Yes, it is not ethical to go on land without permission, I agree. But it is going to be almost impossible for a landowner to prosecute someone unless they do THEIR part when it comes to posting and following the laws. My opinion is simply that if a landowner does his part, he can absolutely 100% expect everyone to stay off his land without permission, as it is illegal (by the letter of the law) for anyone to access his land without permission. If the landowner doesnt follow the law regarding posting, then he/she shouldnt be surprised when he/she can't prosecute a "trespasser".

Right, I get that landowners have responsibilities according to the law if they want to make it easier to prosecute. They eliminate any chance for confusion that way. That's the landowner's part. I'm just saying that according to the law, if someone enters your land without your consent, they are trespassing and it is illegal, regardless of whether you have a sign up or not.

[PFUNK]

No, it is not illegal. That's the point that is trying to be made here. If someone enters your private property and it is non-agriculture land that is not legally posted then they are not an illegal trespasser. Non-agricultural private land (i.e. woodlands, grasslands NOT enrolled in CRP, etc) are open to the public for recreational use unless the land owner has chosen to post their land, therefore preventing public use of their land. At least that is the way it seems in the statues/regs. Why else make the differentiation between ag, non-ag, and posting requirements? Reference BobT's post on the bottom of page 2 which is taken from the regulations. Notice that it says ag land does not require posting, but non-ag land must be LEGALLY POSTED to prevent access. It goes on to state that unless the land is posted or the landowner has asked the person to leave and they have refused or have returned again after being told to leave, then there is no criminal trespassing violation to be prosecuted. I guess you can call it trespassing in the sense that they are on private property that isn't theirs, but I don't see how any legal action can be taken against them when clearly, in a legal sense, they haven't violated any statutes. But I could be wrong, certainly wouldn't be the first time.

[PFUNK]

I should note, when I say it is not illegal that is MY interpretation of the statute that has been posted here several times. Also, while I may interpret it as not illegal that does not mean I would do it, as I have made quite clear. I still feel it is unethical to go on private property without permission. Regardless of posting, the landowner is always able to take legal action if they feel like it, I just don't see how they have a chance of winning any court case unless they have taken the time to legally post their land.

[deerminator]

Ok, I'm not trying to split hairs here but maybe I wasn't being clear. I am just saying, nowhere in the statutes does it say - regardless of land type - that if it isn't posted, its open to public recreation. Nor does it say you have to post to keep people from trespassing. What it does say in multiple places for various land types, that if you haven't asked permission, you are trespassing.

[Jameson]

I'm thinking that at one time basically what is now the entire US was public land. Wanted to have your own private land, post it.

[harvey lee]

If we want to all hunt on private property, how about everyone simply ask? Then close the gates, leave the place as clean as u found it and follow all the landowners rules. Then more could access land as everyone would be polite and respectful. The CO's would have far fewer calls and could spend their time more productive. Seems like a win win for all and more private land could be hunt able. Yes I know that would never work as some would rather just trespass, that's easier than finding the landowner and getting permission. Few years back I needed to find a woods to take my granddaughter youth deer hunting and we had to hunt an area I know no one. spent close to 3 days asking farmers long in advance of the youth season. Finally I got permission to hunt this fellows woods, it can and does work to ask, toucan locate the owners and then get permission. Every season I stop by their place and ask again and always a yes. I also hand deliver a card with a photo of her deer and my granddaughter signs a thank you and I also give them a gift certificate to a supper club for an added thanks. Works great for us and we r always welcome back.

[CaptainMusky]

What it does say in multiple places for various land types, that if you haven't asked permission, you are trespassing.

bingo! And they may face charges because of it.

[delcecchi]

I knew that my post would end up hacking on the Oct 15th rest time...probably not my point though. I will edited it that no one hunts it the first ten years so it makes more sense.

The guys posted it. The locals with dogs hunting grouse were trespassing. That seems pretty clear. I don't get the point of the story. Make it "they never got around to posting it and when they made their annual trip up some guys were grouse hunting. They got all upset that the locals didn't read their minds as to what their intentions were.

And I don't see anything in the MN law about dating the signs or corners torn off etc. Sounds like the local power structure in that area has decided to favor the locals over the outsiders, so they make up reasons not to enforce the law. After all those guys have to live there. Perhaps there is getting to be too much land tied up by outsiders and the locals are getting resentful.

[corncob]

Sounds like you seem to think that they should be able to hunt any land they want, no matter who owns it.....Not proper or legal.

[leechlake]

Del,

I get your twist on the story and I understand the "outsider" thought process also. While I understand it however many times these "outsiders" are funding the local school, as an example, through property taxes. So I as a land owner/cabin owner in Hubbard County pay higher taxes than the local "non-outsiders" and for my contribution I have less of a right to keep people off of my land because I also live in the Twin Cities, heck I was born and raised in Edina, MN which makes it even worse. I'm a true outsider.

In my case though I'm lucky because in 1952 my folks scraped up $500 (dad was a bricklayer) and bought a piece of land and over the years room by room built a small cabin which is a few miles from the place my wife and I bought ten years ago. They moved up there in 1989 and spent so much time up there that eventually they were only quasi-outsiders. I get to leech off of the "street-cred" my folks built up over the years getting to know the local people. I hunt and fish with guys that were born and raised up there. I get the outsider thing. The thing is that if the locals don't like the outsiders then they probably shouldn't take the outsiders "contributions" that impact their life either. Can't have it both ways...although it seems that many times the locals actually do get to have it both ways.