working backwards

[Jmnhunter]

my lab is just under 2 years old now, been working on steadiness in the duck blind, obedience is great; the only problem i have is upland hunting, particularly pheasant hunting. he stays in range, works the cover great, but when the flush occurs, and it ends up being a rooster that I miss or a hen, he's convinced he'll catch up to it and bolts after it up to 200 yards away (grouse hunting he wont go nearly as far as he loses sight of the bird right away) ignoring recall whistle and all; I have been going out to him and dragging him back with the recall whistle.

I believe i know how he gained this habit, and that is having my training regime include quail that only flew 30yds, young pigeons (or dizzied pigeons, that were dizzied too much by me, my fault)and he figured out well, if i keep running they are going to fall as hes caught them due to poor flight.

over the summer i started with throwing a football and letting him get half way and started to recall, started off ignoring me, but now hes turning around right away. recently i tried some more pigeons, and learning from my past experiences with them to let them fly (well i got a couple immature ones that only flew so far and this just reinforced his will to catch up to them, granted it was only 30yds from where i was standing)so i really didnt gain much with this last round of pigeon training; although every time i saw the pigeon launch fly around and knew it was going to land for my dog to catch it, i fired a shot in the air to simulate a shot bird. but right before i firing, i tried recall and prepared to go chase him, but by that time i knew i had another "dud" pigeon and it was losing ground

any other ideas? dont want to keep spending $5/bird (especially for weak flyers), although it sounds like that will be the only way to fix this problem

[Scott K]

I hate using one, but sometime a training collar works wonders, and only takes a couple times to correct small stuff like this. My bird dogs listen to me, most of the time, but my coon dogs, need to have training collars on them, or they dont listen at all.

[LABS4ME]

putting a collar on and burning him can create a recipe for disaster. the collar would be used to re-enforce a command he knows but does not obey. ie: correcition. I firmly believe this dog does not know fully what is expected of him. He needs to learn sit to flush and remaining steady. You are biting off way too much the way you are approaching it. Break it down into smaller pieces and eventually put it all together.

All training needs to be done with a lead on. I'd have him on a short lead 1st, throw a winged clipped pigeon in the yard in front of him and hit the whistle to sit. If he does not comply, a quick snap of the lead and a snap on the rear with a sit stick will get his butt down. No need to do it in the field out and away from you. It will be easier to correct when he is right next to you and the expectations of him to not chase is the same in a confined yard and a short drill as it is out in the field. do this over and over till you can see he firmly understands he needs to sit each and everytime you hit the whistle bird or not. Begin extending the length of the lead and start to mix in some blank rounds to simulate a missed bird. That will be when he will most likely come unglued again.

Eventually work up to a check cord, about 50'. get a friend to use as a shooter and some weak birds. let him flush one or you launch a bird, fire a round into the air... immediately hit your whistle to sit him. If he does not immediately sit, use the check cord and a pinch collar to correct him. He now knows what is expected and should immediately comply. Do this several times and once you see he understands what is expected, do so without the aid of the check cord. This would be when you could begin to work in collar correction. In fact I would start when he is still onthe check cord and correct him with both the collar and the check cord. He'll easily asscoc. the correction from the collar and the check cord as one in the same.

Break it down, build it up and take it level by level as he shows he has matered it and you will have a nice non-slip gun dog!

Good Luck!

Ken

[Jmnhunter]

i should have mentioned the sit to flush training is something i opted not to do (i did put a post up a year ago that is the way i was going to train); the training book i've been following explains how to do so, but after going back and forth, i decided not to. the other dogs i hunt with do not have this training, and i figured it would not be fair for my dog on retrieves, i also like the idea of the dog being able to get on a bird right away after it hits to avoid losing cripples.

my goal is training for a solid recall no matter the circumstances (roadways, fences, hens, missed birds, etc.) check cord with wing clipped birds a good start?

[LABS4ME]

I start them all to sit to flush... just to get it in their head. Then as they progress in their hunting skills, they become meat dogs and I let them break on the flush and shot but recall on whistle or 'no bird'. It is by far easier to give them rope than to try and rein them in. ie: train for more than you expect, and use less, than to train with less and expect more.

you can train with a cord and whistle to recall only, but I like the sit to whistle... this is what you will use when a bird flushes over a road or barb wire fence. your buddies dogs may not 'recall' quick enough in those instances.

Good Luck!

Ken

[Jmnhunter]

thanks Ken!

[870Express]

Great stuff Ken. I think sit to flush would make more sense to train than letting him chase and then recalling. After a couple flushes and immediate sit whistle (using the same training birds), he'll associate the flush with the sit whistle. I see two problems with having him chase then recall. 1) He's not associating the recall with anything. He'll chase different distances each time before he gets the whistle. 2) Because of #1 you'll have to blow the recall whistle every time a bird flushes.