Geothermal Retrofit ??

[Moose]

I'm thinking of putting in Geothermal heat and cooling. Has anyone ever installed it in a city lot? I currently have Nat Gas forced air and have an 80x100 city lot. Our local utility is very progressive with geothermal. I was just wondering what your thoughts are.

[nobody05]

Natural Gas, you will never see your return on your money with geothermal. Why not may I ask an Air Source Heat Pump? Your money will be better spend not to mention about 15k cheaper with a 95% Furnace and say a 17 Seer Heat Pump.

[Biggerfish]

"Although air-source heat pumps can be used in nearly all parts of the United States, they do not generally perform well over extended periods of sub-freezing temperatures. In regions with sub-freezing winter temperatures, it may not be cost effective to meet all your heating needs with a standard air-source heat pump."

I did some research on this and I found this?

[JBar]

that is true for most northern states an air source cannot be used as a stand alone heat source. This is the reason to have secondary heat with a unit air handler with heating strips as supplementary or fossil fuel with a duel fuel controller this will turn the heat pump off at a designated out door air temp when the air source heat pump becomes non efficent allowing the back up to heat the house with the secondary fossil fuel sorce. My personal advice is to go with a quality air source heat pump for a couple of reasons up front cost is way less much longer pay back period with the geo. Parts and maintenace are usually less and you can have one installed in a less invasive mannor to you're properly and in much less time. One thing to keep in mind is that there have been very good rebates from the power companys on both styles of heatpumps and worth checking into. good luck.

[Moose]

Have not looked into Air Source Heat Pumps. I assume they run on electricity similar to an AC Condenser. What are the benefits to air source versus conventional NG and AC Condenser? If I still need a furnace is the any cost benefit? Does air source do heating and air conditioning? I guess I better do some research!!

[JBar]

The apearance of a air source to an a/c is very simmilar but h/p need legs or brackets to get them off the gound for defrosting. In a nut shell an air source h/p is a a/c unit with a reversing valve in the refrigerant piping to switch the flow of refrigerant and a defrost cycle for the heating mode. Yes they do use electricity Most times for you're line voltage going to the unit will be the same as you're split system a/c but an electrition will verify correct amp ratings and voltage durning installation. The benifit to a heat pump geo or air source is the efficency ratings these units are capable of 300% durning ideal conditions on some. easist way to comprehend this is for every dollar you need to run the unit you will get 3 dollars of engery out lets say verses a 93% efficient natrual gas furnace there is some unused enegry. something to also note is the cost difference between the two sourses most years and areas the electric rate is cheaper if the math is done to convert watts to equal natural gas therm usuage. Yes an air source will do both your heating and cooling. When I used to do service work I would usually set a air source to 15* this number is not set in stone many variables. then at 15* the unit would swith to your other source of heat now you might be thinking well it gets -30* in the winter thats okay if you look at how many heating degree days are in a year and how many are above 15*. heating your house with a cheaper energy source makes sence. hope im not rambling good luck

[Moose]

ok so I've done a little research and they keep talking about downsizing duct work and all kinds of crazy variable that would basically cause me to not want anything to do with it. What is the true scoop? Do i need to do all this or can I just use my existing system? The house was built in 95 and we have standard duct work not the insulated tubing. As far as having a HP and a furnace I would need to replace my AC unit at the same time any how. Both are pushing 15 years old and I would like to do something while they are still up and running so it's not a crisis in the middle of the winter. I currently am budgeted 40.00 a month on gas and run about 60-80.00 a month for electric. We keep the house @ 68 in the winter and 75 in the summer. We have a programmable thermostat and lower and raise the temp when we're not around. Does a heat pump bring the temp up as quickly as a standard furnace? I also have an over sized gas fireplace could I use that as my backup system? Here in the metro it drops below 15 at night quite a bit but it warms to an average of 20 during the day. Would a HP struggle and use more electric on those days or just shut down and let the backup do the work? Lots of ? and more rambling than you.

[JBar]

I don't know where you have received that information but in all the work I have done I've never down sized duct work that will usually only lead to air flow problems that info must have been longer runs that were oversize to start with not an issue for a h/p install. If you duct was desinged properly in the first place you wont have any issues a quailty contractor will inspect your duct work when an estimate is made for your unit. If your duct is in a conditioned space you do not need insulation on your duct. I will say if you only have 40.00 a month heating bills I personally would only upgrade the equipment you currently have to a higher efficency furnace and a/c unit. Heat pumps during colder weather will have a lower discharge air temp into the house than your furnace they perform better when you set the thermostat and leave it. A heat pump has a hard time "playing catch up" in colder weather but most duel fuel controllers now have a timed feature if the unit cannot heat the house whithin a designated time frame of commonly 90 min it will automatically go to your back up system also a nice feature incase of failure. You still need a system to blow air across your evaporator coil, furnace, air handler ect. the fire place will not do this. On the colder days like i have stated above the controll installed will switch your furnace or electric heating elements on based on which unit you have installed at a designated out door air temp that the unit will still heat your home.

[Moose]

I was wondering about just updating the existing equipment. Right now I run water, dryer, stove,fireplace and furnace off NG.I would go with a 95% efficient furnace with a 2 stage blower. What is the highest seer I can go with the AC unit? I believe I have a 3ton unit right now. I like that it only takes about 20 minutes to lower the temp from 80 to 75. I understand that by going too high will not remove the humidity as well due to the short run times. I have an air exchanger but it seldom runs now that I replaced the windows. We keep the humidity around 40-45% year round if the HVAC systems are running.

[nobody05]

You can get a straight A/C 18 to 20 seer if you'd like. I put in a 95% NG Furnace and a 17 Seer Heat Pump/AC A honeywell IAQ Controls the whole works. Program your temp in which you want your furnace to kick in. Mine is at 20 Degrees. I love it, one con's is that you have to shovel snow away from the unit in the winter And keep the blades free of ice. Both Air Source and Geo are going to take Electricty. My bill was was 7400 Bucks Done deal.THe perks where $330 Rebate from coop. $100 Bucks Rebate From gas company. $500 Tax credit. So Roughly 6500 Bucks Totall

[Moose]

Thanks Nobody. What was the cost difference between the Air source pump and the standard A/C? Did you previously have only NG? If so was there any energy reduction by going with the air source pump? In the long term I would like to add solar to run the air source. Is this doable?

[nobody05]

Extra grand for the heat pump vs. straight a/c. Previously only had natural gas. I cannot tell you what my energy cost would have been before being I put the furnace/hp in 3 months after I moved in the house. But what I can tell you is that apon moving into the house which is a 1979 Rambler recently installed Brand new windows & siding with 3/4'' High density foam behind the siding also a foot of cellulose in the attic. Being last winter was mild but by my figures I know I can Heat and Cool my house for under 500 bucks a year. As solar goes I dont know how you could tie your Heat Pump into it. I know you can heat water with it. Or just run it through your meter backwards if you'd like also.

[Moose]

What Brands did you put in? Can I use the same A coil I have for the current AC or is a complete system overhaul to put in the HP? How much did the furnace run as opposed to the HP during the winter?

[nobody05]

ArcoAire it's an ICP Product. No you will have to put in a new A-coil. Well last winter my furncace maybe ran a handfull of times. Only at night being it never really got cold last year. Also the furnace kicks in when the HP goes into defrost cycle. HP do not like temp changes in the house (as in turning t-state up and down) I kept it at 68 degrtees 24/7 in the winter.

[wallythewalleye]

I would not get a heat pump unit unless you get cheap electric rate or you can get a dual fuel rate during the winter. What ever you do get a variable speed blower furnace. Really help keep the whole house at more of a consistant temp.

[hockeybc69]

I have an open loop Econar heating/cooling system....

I will never get another one again. We had our first one 9 years and it fried last summer. Costed me over 10k to replace it.

Add onto that, its not even close to the numbers i was showed on paper for efficiency. Our Electric bill in August was $390....

My next house will have central air and gas furnace for one reason... Tried and true and wont break the bank when either one fails. On top of that, it wont cost any more to run them than this geothermal disaster that I own today costs to run.....

[nobody05]

econar is a crock of crack IMO they always want to lace their heating systems with electric heat banks. The most in-efficient way to heat a home.