Ruger 10/22 vs. Ruger Charger

[SmilinBob]

NaturesRespect: You will need to be 21 and have a permit to carry or permit to purchase a handgun to buy the Encore because of the ease of converting it to a handgun. You can buy it in the shotgun, rifle, or muzzleloader form and convert it later with nothing else being required, but most dealers will probably ask to see your permit when buy the barrel also, not a requirement, just a CYA thing for them.

[NaturesRespect]

NaturesRespect: You will need to be 21 and have a permit to carry or permit to purchase a handgun to buy the Encore because of the ease of converting it to a handgun. You can buy it in the shotgun, rifle, or muzzleloader form and convert it later with nothing else being required, but most dealers will probably ask to see your permit when buy the barrel also, not a requirement, just a CYA thing for them.

that makes no sense everyone here is saying its pretty much illegal to convert a Encore longams to the handguns but okay for the Encore handguns to be converted to a longarms....... WHICH IS IT!!!!!!!!

also what your saying is i need to be 21 with a purchase permit to buy an Encore longarms?

[nonteepical]

he's saying when buying new at the gunshop, and you buy your encore in pistol form, you'll need a permit because it gets registered as a pistol. if you buy it new in a long gun you don't need a permit because it gets registered as a rifle or shotgun. you can buy a pistol barrel any time no permit needed. if they ask for one (permit) when buying just a pistol barrel, i personally wouldn't buy anything from them again, because it is not required.

[NaturesRespect]

he's saying when buying new at the gunshop, and you buy your encore in pistol form, you'll need a permit because it gets registered as a pistol. if you buy it new in a long gun you don't need a permit because it gets registered as a rifle or shotgun. you can buy a pistol barrel any time no permit needed. if they ask for one (permit) when buying just a pistol barrel, i personally wouldn't buy anything from them again, because it is not required.

still no sense in all this because to some on here its illegal to have the encore in shotgun or rifle form... registered as a rifle.... then buying a pistol barrel later on

OMG this stuff is confusing!

[SmilinBob]

no matter what form it is bought in you will still need a permit to purchase or permit to carry in Minnesota. I don't make these rules (just have to live with and abide), but it is considered to easy to convert and these guns are sold in handgun form so our great state throws a blanket over all of them and classifies that way. Just like buying an AR style rifle. I don't like it any more than you and please don't boycott a business because they are also trying to keep up with currnet laws and will sometimes go a little extra to avoid trouble down the road when an inspection from the ATF occurs, they are just trying to maintain a hard to get licence that is most likely their livelyhood, and adding 8.5 seconds to your transaction should make you feel that it is a reputable dealer. I doubt any would ask for a permit when purchasing a barrel, but stranger things have happened.

[brrrr]

HERES WHAT I FOUND..........

Any way you stack it, it is technically a violation of the 1934 National Firearms Act to convert a TC from rifle configuration to handgun.

Best advice is to have one frame purchased as a handgun, dedicated to handgun use, and one frame dedicated to rifle use.

Even though the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms (BATF or "ATF") is to date apparently not prosecuting violations of this law by the TC shooting community who routinely change their Encores, Contenders, and G2s back and forth between rifle and handgun configuration, owners of TC firearms must be aware of the law and govern themselves accordingly in spite of TC's position statement regarding changing their products from one configuration to another.

After all, it will not be TC who charges you with a crime. It will be the BATF if and when they decide to apply the law to the TC interchangeable barrel platform.

The "Short Barrel Rifle" Issue.

By now most everyone has gotten the word that an assembled combination of a frame, buttstock, and barrel under 16" represents a potential invitation to "The Graybar Hotel," but many shooters are oblivious to those parts of the same law that address "making" a handgun from a rifle.

This is technically against the law!

One can legally convert a handgun into a rifle by installing a buttstock and a barrel 16" or longer, but once it is configured as a rifle, converting it back to a handgun is "making" a handgun from a rifle.

The "Catch 22" is there is no way to identify whether any given frame started life configured as a handgun or as a rifle, nor is there any way to know its history changing hands from one owner to the next.

It is probably best to rely on the information from the 4473 form covering one's purchase of a frame as back up to identify what legal configuration it was. Or, when buying a frame from an individual make an honest attempt to keep it in the same last known configuration.

Expanding on this, here is an example, courtesy of "GonHuntin," who has researched the subject extemely well.

Mike

There should be some mention somewhere that the US Supreme Court case the TC letter (posted below) speaks of did not deal with converting contenders that left the factory in rifle configuration.....it only addressed the legality of converting a contender handgun into a rifle through the use of a "carbine kit"......TC did not offer a factory contender carbine at the time the case was filed......thus, the decision cannot be used to infer the legality of converting contenders/encores that left the factory as rifles......

Second, one of the best ways to get the point across is as follows:

If you walk into your neighborhood gunshop and buy a Remington Model 7 rifle and an Encore rifle.......take them home and:

1. take the model 7 barreled action out of the stock and place into a vice, hacksaw the barrel to less than 16" and place the action and barrel in an XP-100R handgun stock......

2. take the Encore rifle barrel and stock off the frame and replace them with a pistol grip and barrel less than 16" long......

You have committed the same federal felony of making an unregistered short barreled rifle.........

These two items would definitely help make the issue crystal clear.

------- end of message----------

A Major Problem Exists Between Thompson Center's Policy Statement Regarding Converting Handguns and Rifles Back and Forth and What The Actual Letter Of the Law Is.

Below is a reprint of their Policy Statement. Compare this to the BATF's statement that follows it.

The following was hand entered verbatum from the policy statement sent to me by US Mail from Tim Pancurak at Thompson Center Arms Co.:

Notice Concerning Encore/Contender Pistols and Carbines

Thompson/Center Arms Co. went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court to establish the lawfulness of the Contender pistol and Carbine (including the carbine kit), and won. The Supreme Court opinion also establishes the legality of the Encore system, which has similar interchangeable parts.

With these systems, a receiver may be assembled either with a pistol grip and pistol barrel, or with a shoulder stock and rifle barrrel (minimum length 16 inches). A barrel under 16 inches in length must never be assembled onto the reciever when the shoulder stock is attached. Within that parameter, the consumer may use the parts to make a pistol or carbine, and may change the configuration at will.

In 1988, Thompson/Center filed suit against the United States alleging that the pistol and carbine kit used above do not constitute a rifle with a barrel less than 16 inches in length, a weapon made from a rifle with an overall length less than 26 inches, or a restricted "firearm" as otherwise defined in the National Firearms Act. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit and the U.S. Supreme Court agreed with Thompson/Center. Their opinions are cited as United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co., 504 U.S. 505 (1992), affirming 924 F.2d 1041 (Fed. Cir. 1991).

In the trial court and in the Federal Circuit, the United States argued both that (1) the mere unassembled parts constituted a rifle with a barrel under 16 inches in length, and that (2) use of the receiver to assemble a pistol after a rifle had been assembled constituted making a weapon from a rifle with an overall length less than 26 inches. The Federal Circuit rejected both arguments. See 924 F.2d at 1043, citing 26 U.S.C. 5845 (a) (3) and (4). The United States abandoned the latter argument in the Supreme Court, which held generally for Thompson/Center. Accordingly, both issues (1) and (2) were decided in favor of Thompson/Center and are not now open to question.

Thus, the sale, possession, and use of the Contender or Encore pistol and carbine as described are fully in accord with federal law. The use of these products in all of the States is likewise lawful, except that certain restrictions may apply in California.

BATF Position Statement

If these scanned images are not readable on your screen, you may obtain them by email from [email protected] .

In summary, without getting into all the court decisions and logic behind both positions, it boils down to this:

Thompson Center says you can freely swap handgun and rifle parts back and forth so long as you do not combine a buttstock and a barrel less than 16" or an overall length with a buttstock under the legal 26" limit.

The BATF says you can't!

Who are you going to believe?

I tend to believe the one carrying the big stick with the arrest powers and suggest you do the same!

Special Thanks to "GonHuntin" for his persistence in bringing these issues to our attention and for supplying his copy of the BATF's responses posted above. Below is a background letter from him:

First off, Mike, I'd like to thank you for the comments you have made regarding my efforts to determine the truth about what is and is not legal to do with the Encore and Contender.

First, a little background info so folks will know where I am coming from. I have been shooting as long as I can remember. I started loading my own shotgun ammo with a Lee Loader when I was about 10 years old. If it goes bang, I enjoy shooting it! I bought my first Contender about 16 years ago and have enjoyed collecting, shooting and hunting with them ever since that time.

Not long after buying my first Contender, I also became interested in Title 2 firearms (commonly known as "class 3 weapons" or NFA weapons). As I researched the laws pertaining to title 2 firearms, specifically the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Gun Control Act of 1968, I also learned of the TC Supreme Court case. I read everything I could find about the case. About this same time, I was a member of the old "TC List", an e-mail discussion group centered on the TC Contender. While participating on this list, the topic of converting Contenders between rifle and pistol configuration often came up, one member even publicly reported shooting his 14" 309 JDJ Contender with a buttstock attached! These discussions also were commonplace on the various handgun forums. As I participated in these discussions, I was often attacked for mentioning the laws that prohibit the conversion of rifles into pistols. I was told that the TC court case had somehow exempted the Contender from the law, I was also told that all TCs were legally handguns despite how they left the factory, and I was told that it didn't matter how they left the factory as long as the dealer listed the firearm as a pistol when the paperwork was done. I knew that all these "explanations" were simply not true. I had actully taken the time to read and research the TC court case, and I had actually read the National Firearms Act and the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Years went by and the discussions continued. I was called a liar, stupid and many other things that weren't quite as complimentary. Finally, in 2003, I'd had enough of those people who either didn't want to listen or chose to ignore the facts, so I decided to settle the matter once and for all. I wrote a letter to the BATF Technology Branch in Washington DC. The Technology Branch is the division of the BATF who's job is to determine the legality of firearms. They are the folks you contact when you want an answer to a legal or technical question concerning firearms and they answer the question with reference to the specific laws that apply. If you don't like their answer, the next step is to file a court action.

The response I received from the Technology Branch confirmed what I had said all along (the original letter I wrote and the BATF response are posted on this forum and available for you to read).

1. A firearm that left TC in rifle configuration (equipped with a buttstock) *IS* legally a rifle and is subject to all rules and regulations pertaining to rifles.

2.It is NOT legal to convert a rifle into pistol configuration without first registering it with the BATF as a Title 2 weapon, (short barreled rifle).

3. The legal status of a TC, whether rifle or pistol, is based on the configuration of the firearm when it leaves the factory.

4. The legal status of a frame that left the factory with no other parts (bare frame without stock or grips) is determined by the way it is FIRST assembled. If it is first assembled as a rifle, it will always legally be a rifle, if first assembled as a pistol, it will always legally be a pistol.

5. A dealer cannot change the legal status of a firearm by listing a rifle as a handgun on the form 4473. Listing an Encore rifle as a pistol on the 4473 does not alter the fact that it is and will always legally be a rifle.

6. A person who buys a Contender or Encore that was illegally converted from a rifle to a pistol can be prosecuted for possession of an unregistered Title 2 weapon.....*EVEN IF THAT PERSON DID NOT KNOW THE WEAPON WAS ILLEGALLY CONVERTED*!!! (a call to TC with the serial number of the frame will determine whether it is legally a rifle or pistol)

When presented with irrefutable facts, antagonists then often ask me how many people have been prosecuted for illegally converting a Contender or Encore or how likely is it that a person would ever get caught. My response to those questions are, "I don't know".......and that is not really the point....is it? I'm not interested in discussing the moral issue of breaking the law or the risks of getting caught, I'm interested in getting the facts out to those who are potentially at risk of committing a federal felony due to ignorance of the law. The fact is, people commit serious crimes everyday and get away with it, however, most of those people know the risks of their action but many TC owners don't!

In the unlikely event you get caught and are prosecuted, the penalty for possession of an unregistered Title 2 weapon is up to 10 years in prison and up to $250,000 in fines. Even if you aren't convicted, it would cost a small fortune to defend yourself in court.

Bottom line.......even if the chance of getting caught is remote, is it worth the risk when you can buy a $250 pistol frame and not worry about it?

[NaturesRespect]

no matter what form it is bought in you will still need a permit to purchase or permit to carry in Minnesota. I don't make these rules (just have to live with and abide), but it is considered to easy to convert and these guns are sold in handgun form so our great state throws a blanket over all of them and classifies that way. Just like buying an AR style rifle. I don't like it any more than you and please don't boycott a business because they are also trying to keep up with currnet laws and will sometimes go a little extra to avoid trouble down the road when an inspection from the ATF occurs, they are just trying to maintain a hard to get licence that is most likely their livelyhood, and adding 8.5 seconds to your transaction should make you feel that it is a reputable dealer. I doubt any would ask for a permit when purchasing a barrel, but stranger things have happened.

smilinbob u said i can buy a longarms encore and convert it later to a pistol with no prob now your saying i need a permit..... also the carry permit, isnt that only for conceal carry?

for those who keep saying the pistol barrel 16 inches stuff...... IM NOT TRYINNG TO PUT THE DANG PISTOL BARREL ON WITH A BUTT STOCK!!!!!! I UNDERSTAND THE LESS THAN 16 INCHES NEEDS A PISTOL GRIP. I UNDERSTAND 16+ INCH BARREL NEEDS BUTTSTOCK!!!!!

the encore i plan to buy is mainly for hunting and sportting..... carry permit? i do not intend to conceal/carry this gun therefore i shuld not have to need a carry permit. State regs states you must be 18 to hunt with a pistol, 21 to purchase pistols.

I think im better off asking an officer

[brrrr]

NaturesRespect,

the way the law is written, you cannot legally convert a t/c encore rifle to a pistol configuration. if either the barrel is less than 16 inches, or the overall length is less than 26 inches, you would have waht the BATF describes as a SBR / short barreled rifle, this is a felony without a NFA tax stamp and registering it as a SBR, period.

however, if you own a T/C pistol which was designated a pistol from the factory and sold to you as a pistol, than you may (take your chances) and put on a barrel longer than 16 inches and a stock as long as the OAL is more than 26 inches and (take your chances some more) convert it back to a pistol.

I know it does not make alot of sense, but that is the beast they call BATF.

you can apply for a SBR and pay the tax so you can put a smaller barrel on the oncore rifle, and (not 100% sure) put a pistol grip on it. once it is SBR you should be able to configure it as you like BUT it is now a NFA registered weapon and all those laws then apply, such as transporting it across state line and tranferring ownership becomes a hassle.

you should definetly get legal advise, and perhaps ATF policy in writing before continuing with your project.

there is much better advise out there than you will get on this forum, the consequences of getting caught with an illegal weapon based on bad advise would ruin anyones day for sure...

[Tator2k]

The Minnesota law is a 'Permit to carry a Pistol' it is not concealed carry permit.

The law allows you to carry open or concealed.

Read up on the laws. Basically, if you do not have a permit the 'old' rules apply. It must be cased and unloaded while being transported.

The only time you are able to freely open carry is while hunting and/or on private property.

I'm not going to copy the rules verbatim. Seems like you already like using capital letters when folks are trying to explain the laws to you.

I've been a permit holder since almost Day #1.

[SmilinBob]

In both posts I said you will be required to have either a permit to purchase or a permit to carry to buy an encore in MN. Go to any of the large stores and thats what you will get also. Should you choose to convert yours it appears you are on your own to either contact the BATF for approval or take your chances.

[brrrr]

Smilinbob,

Why would you need a permit to purchace an Encore in MN? am I wrong to assume that an Enocore 209 shotgun or blackpowder could be sold as configured as a Long Gun and would be sold as a Long gun and then a permit to purchace would not be nessasary?

I am not an expert and do not own an Encore (yet) but my understanding (limited) is that many of the Encore are assembled as long guns from the factory and registered as such, which is why an 18 year old could legally by an Encore (long gun) but not purchase (from an FFL) an Encore pistol without the permit to purchace.

please explain if I have misunderstood anything?

[SmilinBob]

I have not sold one, but everyone I know that has bought one from another retailer has had to have the permit, with the reason given to them that it is easily converted to a handgun and meant to be interchangable. Right, wrong, or otherwise these can be changed in about 5 minutes with simple tools, so I would guess the retailers are just putting it on the 4473 to be safe. I would also do that jsut for the reason given earlier, my FFL is my livelyhood, so I don't want to take any chances. There are a number of muzzleloaders out there that come with the instructions that a 4473 for modern firearms must be completed just for the reason of the interchangable barrel configuration.

[brrrr]

I understand the CYA thing, x100 when it comes to dealing with the BATF. However I could not find citation for needing a P2P when buying an Encore in MN. I called a big retailer that starts with "C" to see if they would point me in the right direction of needing the P2P. The young man I spoke with (although on any givien day you may get a different answer) stated that TC Encores configured as a black powder (or shotun) need a 4473 and an instant background check just like any other long gun, they do not need a P2P and they are sold just like any other long gun (although different from a black powder, obviously). A T/C pistol would need a P2P or P2C if they had one to sell (currently they have none new, and may have some used). at least that is what I was told on this given day.

[brrrr]

just thought I would add this, on the CYA issue, if I was a seller of a used T/C, I too would C My A make sure that the purchaser had a P2P, because if the seriel number got recorded wrong or there was an error made along the way by either a previous seller (ffl or not) or the BATF (cause they never make mistakes) one could end up with a pistol frame configured as a rifle or worse purchace unknowingly a title 2 SBR configured as a rifle or blackpowder gun and find oneself in a big bucket of doo-doo if the seriel numbers came back as something other than a long gun.. I would hope that if the gun was registered as SBR the owner would be very aware of the fact and probably not be transferring it without all the hoo-haa, but stranger things have happened.

[nonteepical]

so can anyone with an ffl, check the serial number on the reciever of a used encore, and see what it was originally registered as? (long gun or pistol)

[brrrr]

I believe you can call Thompson directly and they will give you the info firsthand as they are the manufacturer. other than that I am not sure if anyone else would have the info in a searchable database.

[NaturesRespect]

this stuff is giving me a headache... makes me almost not want my dream gun anymore..... I do not need a permit to carry since this Encore I want is not for any of the conceal carry cr@p..... it will only be used for hunting and shooting at the range therefore i do not need a permit to carry it..... YES I WILL TRANSPORT IT WITH A CASE IM NOT THAT DUMB, people here are assuming that i want to ownt this gun like a toy gun and bring it everywere or conceal carry with it.

everyone keeps telling me this that this that about the laws but no one has said anything about trying to get the longarms encore converted into a pistol LEGALLY. Someone said i will need a SBR to put on a pistol barrel but i cannot have a pistol grip, whys that?

[brrrr]

Nature,

no you do not need a permit to carry if you are hunting with a pistol.

A pistol without a P2C must be cased and follow all pistol transportation laws, you knew this just clarifying.

A firearm manufatured as a long gun (rifle or shotgun)and deginated as such by the maunfacturer cannot be re-registered as a pistol. it is a long gun. Always and forever.

A firearm that was manufactured as a long gun (in your case T/C encore)

can only be under 26" over all length or have a barrel shorter than 16" if you first apply for and get approved by the BATF, to register as a title 2 firearm also known as a Short Barreled Rifle. -this is not cost effective by the way.

There is no other LEGAL way as far as I know to posess a T/C encore which was manufactured as a long gun with, either with a pistol grip or shorter barrel. If for any reason a LEO runs the seriel # and it is configred like a pistol, you are in possesion of a ILLEGAL weapon. There is even debate whether owning a pistol grip or shorter barrel for a T/C purchased as a long gun could demonstrate constructive possesion.

If you want to have a T/C Encore with a pistol grip you SHOULD buy a T/C pistol. You can then add a longer barrel and stock (in that order). and you PROBABLY will not be in any violation of any firearm laws. IANAL so do your own research.

I (among others) AM TRYING TO GET YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT IS EXTREMELY UNWISE TO PUT A PISTOL GRIP ON A FIREARM PURCHASED AS A LONG GUN. EITHER PURCHACE A T/C PISTOL LEGALLY NOW OR WAIT UNTIL YOU ARE 21 AND PURCHACE A T/C PISTOL THEN IF YOU WANT A PISTOL GRIP.

[SmilinBob]

from ATF industry operations: Its legal to buy an encore in pistol form and convert it to a rifle and back to a pistol, it is illegal to buy an encore in long gun form and convert it to a pistol. State regs pre-empts a bit here: you will be required to have a "permit to acquire a handgun" OR a "permit to carry a pistol" in order to purchase a Thompson/Center Encore in the state of Minnesota,because it is manfacutured and sold in both forms, and therefor the pistol trumps, and the law blankets all of them.

[brrrr]

Quote:

from ATF industry operations: Its legal to buy an encore in pistol form and convert it to a rifle and back to a pistol, it is illegal to buy an encore in long gun form and convert it to a pistol. State regs pre-empts a bit here: you will be required to have a "permit to acquire a handgun" OR a "permit to carry a pistol" in order to purchase a Thompson/Center Encore in the state of Minnesota,because it is manfacutured and sold in both forms, and therefor the pistol trumps, and the law blankets all of them.

Smilinbob,

what do you mean the law blankets all of them? which law?

[SmilinBob]

to the state of MN an encore is an encore, be it a handgun or long gun they don't differentiate between models and since it comes from the factory in a handgun model they are all covered under the "handgun sales" heading, hence the need for the permit, its a poorly worded state reg, not federal. It's one of those goofy things like an AR or AK platform. Even the guy at the ATF said the Encore is one of the most confusing and misunderstood firearms.

[brrrr]

Nature,

regarding your 10/22 and charger question, the same laws apply. you cannot legally convert a 10/22 to a pistol even though the pistol stock and barrel from a charger would easily fit. The charger is sold as a pistol so it can be shorter.

getting caught with a converted 10/22 is still a federal felony and you could lose all your guns for life.

playing with gun parts and modification can be fun but you must be careful of the insane laws that apply to the craft.

[brrrr]

SB,

confusing is right on the T/C, even the ATF doesn't want to put their interpetation in writing.

I have a friend who has a few of them and several barrels, I never really got excited about them until the Encore 209. even still its an expensive singleshot. The DNR seems to have concerns too regarding having different barrels available during muzzle loader season. Someone someday is going be a test case. Not me.

[carpshooterdeluxe]

some of these guys have gone well out of their way to find the answers to some of the questions posted; i would like to thank all of you for that.

anybody care to dig up for me the laws regarding the use of SBR's for hunting, federal or minnesota state level? i'd love to build a 12" AR to carry for all the groves and cattail sloughs we hunt for coyotes!

[Tator2k]

I would recommend before you have the firearm built, stop by your local law enforcement center to pickup and fill out registration form and pay the $200 tax. I would wait for the the paperwork is returned before you complete the rifle.

Once all the paperwork is complete, all reg. firearm rules apply for transportation and carry.