JConrad you working this friday?

[Jimmy from Cottage Grove]

Hey Joel I am going to be picking up Jasmine friday morning, I was just wondering if you are going to be around.

[Jimmy from Cottage Grove]

Hey Joel it was nice meeting you on friday. You sure have a nice looking dog!!

[JConrad]

Thanks Jimmy.... good meeting you also.... I am very happy with my dog Belle.... At 15 months of age she is doing exactly what we expect from a dog her age. I am fortunite to have a place so close to home like Pine Shadows to work her. Morgan has also been extremely helpful... He does know his stuff...

I think you are really going to enjoy Jasmine this coming hunting season and for many more to come... Morgan has brought her to the point where she understands what it's all about. Now you just need to continue to reinforce the good things... I am sure you understand that.

Hopefully we will see you up here a few more times before the fall hunting season..

The best to you and Jasmine..... Joel

[Jimmy from Cottage Grove]

Yeah I would like to get up there for a few saturdays in the fall. I need to go pick me up an e-collar tomorrow. I tried to do some retrieves in the back yard today, and she would not bring anything back to me. I put her check cord on her, and boom instantly everything was returned right to hand. She knows when I have no control over her.

[JConrad]

She really is a character and a pretty smart dog... the e-collar will really help you going forward...

I enjoy seeing the varied personalities of each dog... really amazing...

You have a really good dog and you will reach a point where she will stop testing you... Just have patience and continue to work with her... Down the road it will all be worthwhile..

take care...

[Perch_44]

E-collars are used to reinforce known commands, they are not used to teach the dog how to do something. you can't just go out and light up your dog because she isn't returning the bumper. stick with the check cord and work on the "here" command.

I would suggest picking up some training material that takes you step by step on the basics. fowl dawgs 1 is a great dvd and it has a collar conditioning program on it also.

[JConrad]

His dog has been in daily training for several months with a professional trainer... She is doing quite well. Jimmy fully understands the purpose of the e-collar and that it is for reinforcing what she already knows.

The dog has been through the trained retrieve in addition to many live birds in the field. We have also had an e-collar on her for a number of weeks.

Jimmy just picked her up from her training program and needs to purchase a collar since he does not currently have one.

[Perch_44]

His dog has been in daily training for several months with a professional trainer...

several months of professional training and the dog won't deliver a bumper to hand off of the collar????

i would be considering my options for a new trainer...

a dog with several months of training should be at a minimum FF, CC, Steady, and at least through basic handling drills and pile work, if not land and water handling and running pattern blinds...

i don't want rip on the trainer, and if the customer is happy with those results, then that is all that matters.

but, for comparison, here is what Stawski offers in just 3 months.

3 Month Gun Dog Program:

• Intro to Ducks and Pheasants

• Basic Obedience

• Force Fetch

• Collar Conditioning

• Steady to Shot

• Quartering

4 more months of training should be well into transitional work, which is blinds, multiples, diversions, cheating singles, etc...

[Perch_44]

Jimmy,

I'm in hastings, and you're more then welcome to come and train with me during the week if you're available. i'm always looking for more people to train with.

i have a couple fields to train on, and some water, no technical water though.

[JConrad]

I have been around a lot of excellent dogs and have never seen a puppy brought to this level period... You do not begin the Forced Fetch until a dog is at least 10 months old and that's even a bit early for most dogs...

This dog is exactly where it should be at her age...

Every dog has a different personality and this dog has a bit of a defiant one... She is doing just fine for her young age. She quarters beautifully, has not issue finding and retrieving shot birds...she just went through the forced fetch days before being picked up....She was just being a bit defiant now that she is back with Jimmy... He will correct this ASAP.

Jimmy why don't you chime in since she is your dog...

[Jimmy from Cottage Grove]

I might have to take you up on that sometime. The dog on the collar is very sharp. She was trained very well in my opinion. She flushes and quarters very well, and retrieves to hand, and is some what steady to shot. She just turned a year last week, and you can't really expect a one year old dog to be completely steady. She is probably one of the most stubborn dogs in the world. She is very smart too, she knows when she is off the check cord/e-collar.

[Perch_44]

You do not begin the Forced Fetch until a dog is at least 10 months old and that's even a bit early for most dogs...

so....you're telling me people like Mike Lardy, Andy Attar, Dave Rorem, Rick Stawski, Evan Graham, are all wrong? That is some pretty elite company that you are challenging training methods of. Please post up your accomplishments in competitions with your trained dogs in the dog games....cause they all have National qualifiers, finalists, and winners under their belts.

I can't believe you are actually charging people to train dogs...

I may be somewhat a novice myself, but i'm around enough accomplished trainers that i know [PoorWordUsage] when i see it...

by the way 99.999999% of the training world agrees to begin force fetch as soon as adult teeth have come in.

i understand that you are talking about a different breed then a lab, but the basics are basics. you still build each breed with the same tools, its just you finish(specialize) them differently.

[Perch_44]

She just turned a year last week, and you can't really expect a one year old dog to be completely steady.

Jimmy, yes you can, and you train a dog to be steady, it doesn't just "get there on its own". If you ever want to, i would be more then willing to help you run some steady drills. I've got everything we will need to do it with. (i don't know what you have for training equipment).

[JConrad]

You are correct stating that you are a novice...

You really should not be discussing the progress of a specific dog that you are not familiar with.

Fact of the matter is you teach force fetch with an ecollar these days and most pro trainers will not introduce a dog to the ecollar until they are around 9 - 10 month old... That is a fact.

I work with field trial dogs every week including a number of dogs that have been to the nationals....None of these dogs were completely "steady" at 12 months of age... "Steady" meaning steady to flush, steady to shot, and steady to fall... Place board work for flushing dogs to steady them to shot normally does not begin until after they are 1 year old.

I also have a 15 month old Griffon that received her Prize I Natural Ability award this summer. She is not yet "steady" to fall but will be shortly... I work with two top notch trainers..... Morgan Haglin in Brainerd and Ed Erickson in Milaca.... Ed has taken a number of dogs to the NAVHDA Versitle Champion level..... Morgan has taken a number of Springers to the National Field trial level... I beleive what they tell me given the success they have had.

Jimmy's dog is right where it needs to be for her age and personality...

I don't think there is any point in really disucssing this further unless a pro trainer or two would also like to comment....

[Perch_44]

Fact of the matter is you teach force fetch with an ecollar these days and most pro trainers will not introduce a dog to the ecollar until they are around 9 - 10 month old... That is a fact.

maybe you teach FF with an ecollar, i beg to differ that the majority of trainers do not. FF is to be taught before CC...

[Jimmy from Cottage Grove]

I would have to say that the trainer did an excellent job with this dog. When I brought her up there, she wouldn't even retrieve a bumper, had never been shot around, and had very little obedience training. I guess most of that was my fault. I had big plans of training her myself. Yet I went through an unexpected career change working sixty hours a week, and attending school at night about a month after I got her. So the dog was the one that suffered. I am sure that you could get alot better results out of a two month training program, but I would assume most dogs are way more advanced then she was when dropped off. When I look at her two months ago she couldn't do a thing, and I am pretty confident I could take her hunting tomorrow. As for the right and wrong way to train a dog. I am not sure that there is a right way. I have read five books, and everyone contradicts the other. I guess the bottom line in this situation was, the dog was way behind for her age, when she started her training.