big question

[nitefisher]

about these derby's that are going on. there are alot of these contests that are going on every day all over the united states. why is there so much of a difference of one to the other. i see people saying that they are wrong for having these contests but yet they are in them, themselves. the thing i see is that the ones that are done the right way is the fish are weighed then released whitch is the big high buck entry fee turnys, then there are the ones that weigh the fish and keep them for display for people to see which i can see both ways on this if properly kept not to hurt the fish, these are the low buck entry fee contests that more people can afford to be in. there are alot of things that i agree with you guys in these turnys on how they are run. most of all of this boils down to who has the money to travel and have money for the entry fee and have the money for bait, and if useing the boat money for gas for that. though i don't beleive in the way some of these contests are run. im not trying to [PoorWordUsage] anyone off but from what i have read is that the small contests should not be held, but it's alright for the big exspensive turny's to have them. now you big cat guys use to answere my questions all the time and i really like the info you have passed on to me and other veiwers, but since i posted about the catfish derby days derby it is like you all got madd at me, i my be wrong in what i see and im sorry if i am, but i also think the poor man should have the right to be in contests to, and all the bad dump being said about them should be brought up to the dnr and the people that run the show at the contest. remember guys im on your side, i have the right means of keeping my fish alive and healthy while i transport to the station for weigh in, from there it should be the dnr that takes over. (now the garbage is another post) there are a lot of filthy slobs for fisherman out there is all i'll say right now.

[hanson]

I think a key point, or at least in my opinion, is the changing attitudes of fisherman to the flathead catfish in the state of Minnesota.

In my opinion, the sportfishing aspect of flathead catfishing is growing. More and more people are fishing flathead catfish, and more and more people are becoming very effective at targeting them. They are also practicing catch & release of these fish. A big part of that growth I'm sure is from the information available to people through media sources such as Fishing Minnesota.

But there is also a huge, and I mean HUGE, segment of the general fishing population that couldn't tell you the difference between a flathead catfish & a channel catfish. These people haven't recognized a catfish as a gamefish yet. To them, they are just a rough fish that lives in the river. And some of these rough fish grow to immense sizes, the flathead catfish that many of us dearly love. Many of these people end up killing these big flatheads when they catch one because they have to show their buddies, or bring them home so they can get a picture with them.

I think many of us are learning a lot about the flathead catfish, and have come to develop an appreciation of them because of that. Educating and teaching these other fisherman about the flathead is whats going to be tough, and take time.

I think progress is being made- I know of 46lb, 48lb, 50lb, & 58lb Flatheads that have been caught this summer alone by FM guys that have all been released. I would seriously hate to think what would happen to those fish if they were caught on contest day, by someone who didn't know better.

...just my 2cents.

[Wiskers]

Yeppers, I hear ya hanson. For example, look at the Pro Bass Tour. How long are the fish are in the live wells before the end of the tournament? How long do they stay in the live well durring the awards show. How long do they hold up the fish for photos and talk to TV and such. You never see the fish being released? Do they release the fish or donate the fish for food? I have no idea. But after fishing many Cat tournaments all over the place, I have yet to see many dead fish on the water after it is all done. However, I see more dead big Cats floating every year just from the spawn. This summer has been the worst. I have seen at least 30 huge cats dead on the water and in snags. Cats are pretty harty but they do need TLC to make it back to the water. The Cat's Incredible does a great job at keeping the cats in good shape. The big holding tank they use is airiated and kept cool and additives are put in the water to keep them healthy. The slide tube is no harm to them at all. The biggest issue I see with Flathead tournaments is the pure size of the fish involved. It is just way hard to keep that large of a fish healthy for a long period of time. some serious thought has to go into your storage needs if you are going to participate in such an event. It all falls back to the standards of those in volved. some people just dont care while others will release a large fish to keep it alive and loose the big $$. That is true sportsmanship.

[nitefisher]

the only reason i bring this up is because after i put up the catfish derby days contest, and someone else put one up for the same weekend which is being held only about 10 miles away there has been a lot of controversy over turny's, i don't know if it is just these 2 or if all of them there talking about. now i agree with you on what you say above i have fished catfish includeing flatheads for 30 years, and people still see them as rough fish, (heck i had a guy that was about 70 years old up here in starbuck mn that did'nt know what a catfish was.)but since i can remember this town has had this derby and im 42 now, and by far do i think it is run the way it should be, but for 5.00$ a head i can afford to take my family. just so it is known i release all my flatheads unless they are injured to bad and won't servive. these fish should be regulated like a game fish of any other species, and in my opinion they should be run strickly by the dnr. sorry if anyone took me wrong im just one of those poor guys that can't afford the big turny's.

[katchaser]

I think many of us are learning a lot about the flathead catfish, and have come to develop an appreciation of them because of that. Educating and teaching these other fisherman about the flathead is whats going to be tough, and take time

Hanson

One of the prime directives that good flathead fishermen here practice is catch and release. To insure this will continue most experienced flathead fishermen will not divulge what they have learned to young catmen until they are sure that guy will also practice catch and release.

For instance you observe him as he is learning and find he releases even the biggest flathead he catches. Then you feel better about teaching him how to find and catch more and bigger flathead.

Many people approach me wanting to go flathead fishing but few actually go with me. I just don't want to risk 15 or more years of experience to show them how and where I fish.

Telling me they are strictly catch and release is not enough. They must show me. It also helps if they don't have a need to show everyone else in the world where I fish

I try my best to teach others about fishing for trophy flathead without helping meat hunters destroy the resource.

[rushing]

From Nativefish.org

"For several years, the state record flathead catfish had come from the Minnesota River near Henderson in 1930. The fish weighed an incredible 153 pounds, but because it had been speared, a revised hook and line rule forfeited the crown to another fish less than half this size in weight."

What happened to our 153lbers?

The answer, to me is years and years of people exploiting a resource that many thought to be never ending. As evident in the heavy pollution the river has sustained for decades. As attitudes have changed the river is slowly becoming cleaner and can be seen with the increasing catches of the sturgeon in the river. If there can be a shift in attitudes about the conservation of flatheads in the Minnesota River we could possibly see and increase in the size and number of fish.

From what I understand it roughly takes 15years for a flathead in the Minnesota River to reach the 25lb range. So to me flathead contests on the MN River are a risky and irresponsible exploitation of a much too valuable, hard to replace resource to take part in.

I am not saying everyone who enters a contest is bad or wrong or they don’t know what they are doing, but these tournaments bring out alot of "amateurs" who don’t have the knowledge to properly handle or transport a trophy flathead.

You have more people trying to share the same resource now than the "good old days" and people are probably more effective with modern fishing equipment at catching these large fish. If we want the next generation to have the same chance at catching these large fish we have to protect them, otherwise you will be telling your grand kids "I remember back when we used to be able to catch 40lbers".

Why not exploit a non native exotic species that can reach large sizes such as carp for a tournament?

[nitefisher]

sorry for the late reply but we had some bad weather come threw and knock power out for a little while.

you guys have shed a lot of light on this whole thing, and if only we could get people to relize all the facts and the problems that you guys explained in these posts would be great. but i think it would be rather hard to teach someone all this without takeing them fishing and showing them the do's and don'ts of the sport of fishing for flatheads and the respect for them as game fish. i feel privleged to have learned what i did from my dad, and the love of the sport and respect of takeing care of our water ways and lakes. thanks guys i hope i didn't make anyone madd at me and if i did im sorry.

[hanson]

nitefisher-

I don't think you made anybody mad. Some of us just like to argue about things alot. I agree that there was a lot of good information shared in this thread.

The interesting thing is that most people on this forum who are actively participating all hold the same beliefs and attitudes toward flathead catfish. Its the other something % of the fishing community that we need to work on. Now I don't mean teaching them how to catch them but educating them about the flathead in general- as a trophy fish, as a sport fish, as an elusive fish, and as a top of the line predator in river systems. Hopefully good numbers of them are anonymously reading this and thinking about things, and maybe attitudes will change. Who knows?

Now if we can just get fisherman to stop puposefully snagging them in Pool 4 wintering holes during the winter, we might be getting somewhere. But thats a topic for a different rainy day.

Have fun and send some of that rain our way!

[Hubcat]

Just a idea, Maybe we as experienced catfisherman can come up with a list for the propper way of handling these trophy game fish and then seeing if we can get them to the tourament sites to be handed out when they sign up for the contest. (it would not hurt anyway) I know I would be willing to print off a bunch and drop them off at the bait shops that are local.

[Wiskers]

It is funny some one mentioned where are all our big fish like we used to have in our waters.....

Well I was fishing the Red River over out of East Grand forks. As I was motoring down river I came across a fella on the banks just getting ready to head home. He picked up a stringer of 5 fish. One of them had to be at least 20#. One was in the 15# area and the other three were at least 8-10#.....

I get so angry I could just chew nails when I see this. Not only was he in violation of the one over 24 inches but for gods sake he had 5 huge fish on a stringer.. That in my opinion is what is happening to our large fish. Too many people are not educated and not enough people even care. Peoples out look on our resources and even human life is given no value at all. this is what our soceity is forcing upon us.

Want a good example?,

Two fellas, one goes out and poches a deer and gets caught. The other one goes to the bar and beats the $&(** out of some one and gets caught. The Pocher will get the brunt of the fines and punishments. The assault one will get a small fine and be out of jail the next day. Moral of the story.... If you do not give a concern about out own human rights or put a priority on punishing wrongs the message is clear. "who cares"..You get more rights when you commit a crime any how. That is sad. How can you expect people to care about nature when for the most part even human life is less and less valuable.

It is a true bummer.

[mplspug]

Battery at a bar? Not sure where that came from.....

It is so very true that some are incredibly selfish and short sighted. I bet that guy was more interested in showing his stringer off than anything else. I wish the DNR or some one would get a selective harvest law on the books. I know it's a free country and if a guy puts money into fishing, he should be allowed to keep fish. My problem is we are free to do what we like as long as we don't impose on other people or their rights. As far as I am concerned, people who keep only big fish our imposing on opportunities for future generations, if not present ones. For me it's not that the fish won't be caught again, it's that the genes of larger superior fish are constantly being removed from the pool. As that happens, the smaller ones with poor genes start making larger and larger segments of the population. I'd rather see increases in possession limits with caps on the sizes for all species. And then do the opposite with special regs. Take lakes who's ecosystems seem resiliant to fishing pressure and apply rules where more large fish can be kept.

That's my selective harvest rant.

I would like to add that as a society we need a little credit for cleaning up many lakes and rivers which seems to be helping numbers and size of fish. It's a start.

[MachineHead]

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I bet that guy was more interested in showing his stringer off than anything else.

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Yes. I sense a lot of Cigaro (you have to be a S.O.A.D. fan to understand) in most of these actions.

It isn't enough, or never has been, to just have a picture for these charactors. This requires breaking a mold set by Dads and Uncles and Grandpa's, etc. from days gone by. Not an easy task by any means. Though in reality, it hasn't been that long that people have been touting C&R either. At least judged by the standards preceeding this trend. Catch & keep has been around for, oh, say, since dirt was invented. And while it isn't fun for the people here to see someone walk off with a dandy under his arm, it is still legal. Noted: The exception of the stringer hog a few posts before.

I talked with a guy a few weeks back, think it was the 4th, that was sitting on the bank by access as I was hauling out. Being reluctant to give up my last day of a long weekend easily, I coasted down and threw a line out and chatted with the guy. He was spinning yarns of fish he caught here and there and then mentioned he tagged a 48 pounder in May. Wow I says. Then: Did you keep it? He looked at me like I was insane, 'of course I kept it'.

It's hard to keep a polite look on your face some days.

And therein lies the crux of the problem. Breaking an age old mentality of "I just caught a real keeper, and boy is this sonofagun gonna taste good." And really, he was in his legal rights to do so. Though as pointed out nearly everywhere, this isn't doing the large fish population any good. We think...

One thing that needs to be addressed, without just soapbox shouting, is real hard facts brought about by guys that spent a load on an education backing up claims that all the big fish are gone. Or soon will be. You may notice that you do not catch as many big ones as you used to. Are you sure? Is it that the fish really are M.I.A. or just having a bad streak of tagging one? I notice that there are actually a lot of big fish being caught. One reason is we are getting better at catching them due to equipment and maybe a greater understanding of the quarry. You start telling folks how to catch rotund fish, they will inevitably tell someone else who doesn't have the same line of thinking as you. And the story goes on and on...

EDIT: Stupid buttons. (I hit the wrong one)

So anyway...Rules changes would help. But it isn't going to stop the real poachers from doing their best to thumb noses at that. Again, see couple of posts back. In fact, pick up something like the Outdoor News and read the Cuffs & Collars section once. Some reports are amusing, others are not.

And secondly would be to educate and break the mold of 'keep everything and anything, especially the big ones.' This is the greatest hurdle out there. You like to sport fish. They like to flex that mental P**** for stunning effect of showing how great they are at the hunter/gather thingy. And until that goes away, you won't be doing anything but talking to a wall.

Enough soapbox for one night...

[mplspug]

Yeah, it's pretty sad that some guys can only measure their manhood by the size of the fish they catch.

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Though as pointed out nearly everywhere, this isn't doing the large fish population any good. We think...

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We think? For proof, just look at the size of panfish on most metro lakes. Those stunted little things aren't babies, most are very old adults. Natural selection means the animals with the good genes survive, and the weak become prey. Man is the only animal that reverses this and the biggest, healthiest are targeted for pride, while the ill, weak and small are returned en mass to pollute the gene pool.

I think the DNR needs to hire a mathematician or statistician.