want whoa - get sit

[woodview]

My dog came already predispositioned to sitting and no whoa.

When I got her she already had some training to do the following - 'here', she showed real intensity on point, and unfortunately... 'sit'. I know almost everyone I've read says to never train a pointer to sit but I probably wouldn't mind it if not for the fact that she obviously hadn't had any work with 'whoa' yet.

If she gets confused about anything she'll plop her rear.

She's been very intense on the couple quail I've had her on and hasn't shown any inclination to sit or lay on point but I haven't had her on many birds yet (reason for my previous post) so I'm a little nervous.

I tried using the suit-case style on her but when she feels any pressure on her stomach she will try to sit even harder. Occassionally when I've got her on the table she'll do a little better if I brush the underside of her stomache and the lil nub of a tail she's got, but mostly it just makes her want to roll over.

Wondering if whoa is universal in dog training or if there might be other command words she could have been taught. Not really planning on whoaing her on birds but I definately wanna be able to stop her on command. Also wondering if anyones got suggestions for helping on whoa. Is a pointer sitting that big a deal? (that question sounds really dumb after my above statements, but..)

My present plan of attack has been to go with frequent minny-stops while on leash using whoa then give her the ok to move. Hoping to gradually increase the stop times, releasing her before she sits. Given time, patience, and effort (all 3 of which I'm willing to give in heaping quantities) do you think she'll come around or do dogs that are 1 1/2 years old in this situation usually never break the sit first mentality?

[setterguy]

I found something very interesting in your post, "whenever she gets confused she sits" This is exactly the reason that we try to avoid teaching a pointing dog to sit....but she does so lets try and fix it. If she isn't sitting on point, you may not even have a problem to worry about. You still don't want her sitting when given a whoa command, for instance: you are hunting with another dog that goes on point and you need to stop her before she busts the bird. The suitcase method is the one that I have used, and the whole idea is that you have complete control over the animal. When you give a whoa, she needs to understand that that means stop and not move another muscle, whether that is taking a step or dropping her rear end. If I were you I would keep doing what your doing, if she sits on whoa, pick her up completely off the ground, set her back into the place you gave the command and wait...if she sits again, pick her up again...repetition and consistency is the key here. She cannot be allowed to move at all when given a whoa command. Another method that I have seen used when a dog is sitting on point or whoa is to strap an ecollar around their stomach. If she goes to sit down give a little stimulation and lift her butt off the ground. She is young enough, 1 1/2 years is very young ecspecailly for a pointer. Pointing dogs have so much instinct running through thier veins that it takes a little time to learn how to harness and fine tune thier natural abilities. It sounds like you have the makings of a fine bird dog there. Just be patient and consistent, I would guess that she will learn what is expected of her in short order. Good luck and keep us posted on her progress.

[woodview]

Setterguy,

thanks for the advice.

Fully agree on the "patient and consistent".

I think I got a little freaked the first couple times with her when using the suitcase because she really reacted to the pain it caused her in the tummy area and yet she fought to plant her rear all the harder.

Tonight I asked Theresa to walk her on heel and stop (figured it might give me a different insight into reading the dog better and seeing how she reacts) - when the dog sat she gave her the "oh god you're killing me" routine and I thought "she's playing her".

Went over and choked the suitcase up so that it was tight enough that if she went to sit I wouldn't have to move and she'd feeling it without me lifting up on her - heeled her around the yard and when we stopped she went to sit. I was ready for it and didn't do anything but keep looking straight ahead. Took a little while, but finally she stood up. A couple more times at that and she was hesitating to sit (could tell that she wanted to). After we successfully came to stop two times on whoa and she didn't sit or move I praised her and called it a night. I know it's not much, but baby steps were where Carl Lewis started out too.

Think I'm gonna have to set my signature line to "sorry about all these questions, but...."

[setterguy]

I guess I can't speak for everyone here but I love the questions. For me the training of a pup is my favorite part of the experience. This way I get live vicariously through you, and not have any chewed up wallets, belts ect. I know what you mean about them freaking out when picked up in the suitcase, and I would bet that she is causing such a fuss because of the loss of control rather than the pain that it causes. I would imagine that someone along the lines taught her to heel, then woud walk her around and make her sit. This is a very common training tool for retriever guys, thats why she is so intent on sitting when stopped. I would just keep working, like you said every hurdle crossed is that much closer to the finsih line. Sounds like you have a dog that is very willing to please. I'll bet once she understands what you want she will be more than willing to oblige...

[charliepete2]

Try working the dog on whoa in a puddle. Most pointing dogs aren't willing to plop their rear end down in water. Keep the training light with a young dog. Many times sitting is a sign of too much pressure. When I'm working with a sitter (doesn't usually happen on birds), I just put one hand under their chin and one arm under the belly and pick them up. I just keep after it until they stop sitting.

Barrel training might be something to think about if you're dog isn't too soft. Most dogs won't move a muscle on a barrel.

[BigDaddy]

I've also seen guys use a rope, tied around the waist, then up to a pully, then down to your hand. When the dog tries to sit, you pull her up with the rope. This way you don't have to be right next to the dog. You can be in front of her if you want.

I'm working on the same thing with mine. She was never taught to sit. But since I've been working on "down" she wants to sit when I heal her ~:-@ She never wanted to sit when I healed her before I taught her to "down".

[brittman]

In my limited experience - 4 Britts. Never had a problem with teaching my pointer to sit too.

Realize that the no sit theory is an avoidance program - not a written rule. Avoid the problem by avoiding the command.

Sit is a control/submit command. Whoa is also a control comand - but they are having too much fun to realize this.

[woodview]

brittman - your comment about "having too much" fun gave me a mental image of my dog on point wagging the tail with a goofy grin on her face - panned the image out and there I was doing the same thing - both locked up and drooling.

Not as worried about the wallets, etc. but if she digs up one more flower in the garden I'm gonna have a real problem with the misses! By the way, the comeback "the whole yard is one big garden, it was just one flower" don't fly any better than me.

I'd actually checked out barrel training right before I read your post hubercita. May end up trying that if she can handle it. I don't know if they make the absolutely perfect dog but I'd like her to have as much class as possible - at the same time I'm going to "try" to keep myself realistic, so if she comes "here", is birdie, etc. and doesn't destroy any more plants that I can't replace I'll live with it. Still she's a smart dog so I'll shoot for the moon.

Anyone know if they do any grouse trials here in Minnesota - would be really cool to check one out.