Cross Pollination Tomato!

[Nainoa]

Well... It's going to take a year to confirm, and even then it might not be viable...

I've talked on here before about the open pollinator and heirloom vegetables that I grow...

It looks like I have a successful cross pollination between a San Marzano (The best sauce tomato in the world) and a Brandywine (The most flavorful slicer in the world.

As of right now I have ONE successfully cross pollinated fruit from a San Marzano that was growing next to a Brandywine.

I figure I'll keep double records on the development of this...

I haven't even cut into it to sample it... For all I know it's gonna taste like a donkey turd!

I'll have to save the seeds... Dormancy them... Then around Thanksgiving try a germination test. (Seeds might just end up being Mules)

Then in March I'll start growing it (Labeled)

Then we'll see next summer if the new plant will produce the same fruit again... Or if it will just give me the product of one parent or the other. (More than likely it will default to San Marzano)

But if it turns out... I may just have created a whole new high end tomato for the culinary and gardening landscape!

[TooTallTom]

That's pretty cool. You do a lot of peppers, too, don't you?

What's been your favorite project (or accident for that matter) so far?

[Nainoa]

My peppers... As much as the Chinenze family are know to be promiscuous pollinators... They have't crossed at all... even when I've tried and even when I've tried to fail. (Planted Bhut Jolokia and Aji Dulce next to each other and they didn't even cross heat like they are supposed to!)

Tomato wise... This is my second accidental cross in 2 years.

Last year I had a Glacier Tomato (Which is a small red tomato... A little less than twice the size of a golf ball.) It apparently crossed with a large yellow slicer tomato that my neighbor was growing (Over 100 yards away, so that was a DETERMINED bee!)

So now this year I have one Glacier plant... Potato leaf like a glacier Making small slicers like a Glacier, but it's fruit are yellow, and have the low acidity and sweetness of a yellow.

I've decided to name it "Pony Boy" because it "Always stays golden."

I'm not much of a fan of Yellow's, but my buddy loves them on sandwhiches... And the small slicer have more traction than a large slicer so you get less "Slide" in the sandwich.

[TooTallTom]

The contrast in pollination between the pepper and the tomato planst is kind of funny in a frustrating sort of way. Sometimes you just can't win...

Good deal with the Pony Boy (that's pretty great, by the way) and the limited sandwich slide. That's a problem I've been wishing for (but not actually trying to achieve) a solution to since childhood...

[jeffreyd]

nainoa, one way to break the dormancy is to do a hot water soak in a 190 degree dip for a few seconds. We do it on cotton seed it goes in the bath for 19 seconds and then into the tub dryer. might be worth researching. good luck

[Dotch]

Wow, I foresee Nainoa retiring a wealthy man as a result of this new discovery. We'll all be saying, "I knew him when..."

[Steve Foss]

Wow, I foresee Nainoa retiring a wealthy man as a result of this new discovery. We'll all be saying, "I knew him when..."

Ummm, Mark, if you're going to be gender-specific . . . .

I could be wrong about it, though. All these pollination issues. They are so confusing!

[Dotch]

Ah, I see your point. After checking the profile, it really doesn't say if Nainoa has a pistil or stamens. My apologies.

[Nainoa]

Ah, I see your point. After checking the profile, it really doesn't say if Nainoa has a pistil or stamens. My apologies.

LOL.. At 6'6" 260 with a bald shaved head, I think I'd look pretty awful in a floral pattern dress!

[Nainoa]

Wow, I foresee Nainoa retiring a wealthy man as a result of this new discovery. We'll all be saying, "I knew him when..."

Right now I have 3/4 of an acre... When you subtract the house, driveway and a little bit of woods out back in the orchard... I currently have 51% garden 49% lawn.

Wife and I are hoping to get a small hobby farm and develop that into a CSA gardening business over the course of 10 years... But money issues abide etc...

As it stands right now I sell heirloom tomato & pepper seedlings Then I use that profit to expand and pay for my own garden. So right now with the greenhouse and the gardens and my do it yourself life style...

I started out with $150 investment 3 years ago.

Last year I turned a savings/Net Profit of $5490...

This year I'm on pace for right around $7000 Net... Of course then factor in my sweat, toil and time...

But I figure it's a better use of my short time on this Earth to spend my spare time with my hands in the dirt than it is with my butt in a chair watching dancing with the chimps (Or whatever is popular these days!)

[Nainoa]

The contrast in pollination between the pepper and the tomato planst is kind of funny in a frustrating sort of way. Sometimes you just can't win...

Good deal with the Pony Boy (that's pretty great, by the way) and the limited sandwich slide. That's a problem I've been wishing for (but not actually trying to achieve) a solution to since childhood...

I did a serious test with my Peppers this year... They tell you "Have at least 200 feet between Aji Dulce Peppers and other members of the Chinense family"

Aji Dulce is essentially a Habanero pepper that's been bred for flavor, with almost zero heat. I've spent... Well going onto my 4th year now, developing the techniques and seed selection to grow them this far north... Otherwise the maximum northern range they'll grow in ends in southern Tennessee.

As a result of this I NEVER grow Habanero... Because if they cross pollinate like Chinense are known to do the Aji Dulce will wake up it's habanero heat.

So this year as a form of what I call "Sadistic Gardening" I started growing Bhut Jolokia peppers... Just to torture my pepper head friends. (Which they are in the same pollination family)

Had to put them in separate planters far away from the main pepper beds...

I planted some aji dulce at the base of the Bhut Jolokia, just to test this cross pollination claim... Figured at the least I'd get some red habanero peppers.

So far... Not one cross pollination and their branches are litteraly intertwined... Even watched bees go from Bhut Flowers to Aji Flowers... Nothing...

[TooTallTom]

Ah, I see your point. After checking the profile, it really doesn't say if Nainoa has a pistil or stamens. My apologies.

[Nainoa]

What happens when Chinense peppers cross is that the heat gets turned on or turned up in the milder pepper.

So an Aji Dulce is EXACTLY a habanero that has little to no heat.

This Chinense family of peppers (From the Amazon) loves to be "Promiscuous Pollinators" and will change many forms... But their heat just keeps going up. This is what makes Aji Dulce even more rare!

The whole family is like Horses and Donkeys... except the next generation tends to be genetically viable.

Now Serrano and Jalapeno are in the Annum family... So you can plant them next to each other and they can't cross pollinate any more than you could try to breed a Horse and a Pig together.

One Aji Dulce goes A LONG way flavor wise... If you slice more than 1 small pepper onto a pizza, it will take over the entire flavor of the pizza... Pepparoni, cheese, sauce, onions... They're all just a Kazoo in the marching band.

2 on a pizza and you'll be burping Aji Dulce for a day.

Tonight I'm going to harvest around 85-90 of them... I'll smoke half and then dry all of them. Two days later I'll grind them into powder Mix with salt and just a PINCH of Cumin and a pinch of garlic and then I can use it as a seasoning powder for jerk chicken or really anything caribbean.

Since they are true tropicals, they are used to a 12 hour day with broken sunlight... So unless we have a frost they will keep producing. (Though slower and slower as the soil temps cool)

Last year I had a bumper crop in October... So I didn't run out of Aji Dulce powder until Early May (Used the last of it to season the pork shoulder I smoked on Fishing Opener!)

[TooTallTom]

What happens when Chinense peppers cross is that the heat gets turned on or turned up in the milder pepper.

That's good to know. Does the sweetness stay as well the heat being turned up, or is it basically the equivalent of a dominant and recessive gene (all heat, no sweet)?

Sounds like you're a man with a plan. How long do you think your supply will last this year compared to last year?

[Nainoa]

That's good to know. Does the sweetness stay as well the heat being turned up, or is it basically the equivalent of a dominant and recessive gene (all heat, no sweet)?

Sounds like you're a man with a plan. How long do you think your supply will last this year compared to last year?

[Steve Foss]

LOL.. At 6'6" 260 with a bald shaved head, I think I'd look pretty awful in a floral pattern dress!

I've seen women who looked like that.

But only in Wisconsin.

[Nainoa]

Processed the seeds tonight and tried some of the meat... Flavor is 80% San Marzano 20% Brandywine... The thing I was surprised about was that it actually has MORE meat and LESS seeds than both it's parents... Something that raises it's over all culinary value. So the First of a hundred steps is a good one!

[eurolarva]

I call these brandy girls. This is my first year with brandy wines. I only grow early girls and cherries and tried three brandy wines. This one plant was pollinated by something and I am guessing with all the early girls around them that they are probably that rooster in the hen house

[Nainoa]

I don't suppose you have the tag for that Early Girl?

A true early girl is a hybrid and doesn't cross pollinate true. However getting a hold of true early girls can prove tough for some nurseries if they order late... And there are some early open pollinator tomatoes that they can order instead.

If the tag says something like F1 early girl... Then it can't be the EG's... But if it's an Early producing heirloom/OP... Then you might be on to something.

[eurolarva]

I do my tomatoes from seed. Did the early girls, Sweet 100 cherries and the Brandy wines from seed under grow lights back in March. This is the first year doing Brandy wines. I have always done Early girls cause I like the taste and the sweet 100s for the same reason. The Brandy wines produced real well for me this year. This was the third plant for me of the Brandy wines and I noticed the leaves were different and the harvest was different. I am going to harvest a few seeds from this new tomato and see if it bears fruit next year. I am hoping it will give me a smaller fruit but earlier harvest but have similar flavor

[Nainoa]

Yeah Brandywines are a potato leaf plant... And Brandywine loves to cross pollinate.

The only problem is that by it's nature Brandywine is a late maturing tomato, and this late maturing for whatever reason appears to be a dominant trait.

The only way to get the early trait to appear would be over the course of getting lucky through 2 generations...

So let's say that your current seed crop is all L (Late Trait) and E (Early Trait) So all your plants in 2012 are LE and will mature late... BUT if you can get another cross pollination with an EE plant in 2012... Then in 2013 you have a 50% chance of getting an EE Brandywine for 2014, and you could begin saving seeds reliably then.

Does that makes sense?

Now here's the thing that might pickle your noodle though... I would say that there's a pretty strong chance that the superb flavor of the Brandywine is directly related to it's late trait.

The conversion of starch contributes largely (But not exclusively) to tomatoes... Duration and size are the two primary factors attributed to starch conversion.

So if all the genetics fall out to make a Large, yet early maturing tomato over the course of the years, described above, you could end with just having a "Blandywine."

Thus in all of your seed selections, you're going to have to select from plants that produce small fruit... That would still produce early.

The minimum Lot size that I would use is 10 plants.

However if you read into the story of Radiator Charlie and his development of the "Mortgage Lifter." He was able to do it with 6!

[eurolarva]

The brandy wines were a big producer for me this year even with only three plants and the third was the cross pollinated one. The plant at the end of the garden facing north west has a ton of big fruit on it still. I picked them because of the frost in hopes the will ripen indoors. I doubt they will taste as good as the early ones but next year I plan on growing more. I have been mainly early girls cause I love the taste but because I dont can tomotoes any more the brandy wines look good to me. Something about adding lemon juice or citric acid to tomatoes does not work well with me. Bummer the garden season is over but that means ice fishing is around the corner and that is always a good thing

[Nainoa]

I just started germination testing all my saved seeds from last year... I planted 10 "Sanzowine" seeds so we should find out in the next week or two if they're mules!

[brakedancer]

I have a question about cross pollination...I plant a garden with maybe a half dozen different varities of tomatoes..now I have been planting some heirloom varities..am I getting cross pollination?? My tomatoe crop was horrible last year...I am not new to gardening but maybe I'm not understanding whats going on out there...any help?

[Nainoa]

I have a question about cross pollination...I plant a garden with maybe a half dozen different varities of tomatoes..now I have been planting some heirloom varities..am I getting cross pollination?? My tomatoe crop was horrible last year...I am not new to gardening but maybe I'm not understanding whats going on out there...any help?

No "Cross Pollination" as in Plant A is pollinating Plant B is good. for the fruit of Plant B.

You could define what has happened here for me as "Hybridization" of two different tomato cultivars. BUT hybrids in tomatoes are generally mules... And I'm hoping the fact that both pairs are open pollinators that are not prone to sterility for their type will yield me a plant or two that "Breeds true" to the combination.

*****

In general if you're having issues with the crop of your tomatoes, it is probably related to soil temps, soil PH, general nutrients... Or as happened to me late this past year, when all the humidity sponsored an "Early Blight."

What are your tomatoes doing that is causing your problem in yeild?