Dominance – what is it?

[Todd Caswell]

Quote:

believe a dog should go through:

1. Learning phase (no corrections, they are learning)

2. Distraction phase (new place etc.)

3. Correction phase (kinda goes along with #2, at the right time)

4. Maintenance phase (kinda self-explanitory)

Pretty similar to our retriever training, teach teach and make sure the dog fully understands befor any corrections use used.

Quote:

am guessing you are a compulsion trainer

We do use pressure

1. Choke Chain ( haven't done any damage yet) Don't like prong collars

2. Force Fetch- To assure relaible delivery to hand and help the dog learn how to turn off and deal with pressure via the ear pinch

3. Water force- Dog learns that it has to get in

4. Force to the pile- When running blinds "Back " means you need to go, help eliminate NO-Goes

This isn't somthing I came up with, it's part of almost all retriever training programs.

I the senario I gave it is with a " Finished " dog that knows better and if given an inch will take a mile the next time. Very high drive, talented, but keeps you on your toes (the one in my Avitar). In the retriever world we always sandwich the correction with the command thus reinforcing the command. This is done during the collar conditioning process and after.

I don't like using collar corections on line ( dog standing next to me) I prefer using the stick for line manner issues.

I was courious because some of this stuff can cross over and be helpful when a problem arrises and traditional methods aren't working.

If I feel it's not a good situation when confronted by a strange dog I get complete control of mine and and turn away. Iv'e only had one bad situation with my male and it was in a hunting situation where we were picking up decoys, I had mine in a sit position and the other male came over and tried to mount him ( not smart decision for the other dog) I was able to stop it with my voice and no harm was done.

Good conversation.

[JayinMN]

Here is more of my take on the outdated alpha roll. May I ask if any of you who use it even know where this "training" method evolved from? I guarantee not a single person using it does. Let me help fill you in. Those that use it believe that its how the dam establishes rank with her pups or how dogs establish dominance with one another. Well, if you believe that you have either never had a litter of pups or never been around a pack of dogs. They do not forcible flip each other on their backs on any regular basis. This whole alpha roll idea came to lite in the 1940s after some short studies on wolves and how they hunt. The people studying the wolves misinterpreted ritual behavioral displays amongst the pack as the "alpha roll." They concluded that the higher ranked wolves were FORCIBLY flipping the lower ranked wolves onto there backs in order to exert dominance. Well, that is not what happens, the subordinate animal in voluntarily rolling over in submission and there is no force involved. Its all a ritualistic display to maintain pack structure and the alpha roll was disproved a long time ago. It still seems to abound in dog "training" today though. It does not establish dominance over a dog, is not a natural method of teaching dogs and lets not forget the fact that dogs are not wolves either.

Alpha rolls, scruffing the dog and getting physical are most often done out of frustration and anger on the humans part. Luckily for humans dogs are very forgiving in the ways we treat them and the majority do not want to be the leader of the household or there would be a lot more human injuries. If a person is taking any time to train their dog, they should have some form of communication between owner and dog. My dogs can tell when I am pleased and when I am not with a simple "good dog" and a "no" that is all it takes. Its all in the tone of my voice. I have never had to physically prove myself to them and thats because I train them and act as their leader daily. Now when I see the alpha roll used the most is when a dog is not listening and there has been no consistency in training. The human gets mad and man handles their dog to show they are the boss, because they never taught the dog what they are expecting it to do. The dogs not learning anything except you can be aggressive and unpredictable. They only time another dog would knock another dog off its feet and force it to the ground is during a fight. Can you imagine what its doing to your dogs phsych to be taken down on a regular basis. Instead of becoming a leader, your showing the dog your unstable. Aggression is often mistaken for dominance as well and the majority of aggression displayed by dogs is fear based. Many people make the mistake that the dog is displaying dominance and use the alpha roll to handle the situation. This only adds to the dogs anxiety and insecurity since again you are not establishing yourself as a leader which the dog needs to feel safe and secure. These fear behaviors are going to escalate when the roll is used on it over and over again. Then there is the true dominant dog, who is always going to have a dominant temperament no matter how many times you roll him. The day he gets fed up with it and decided he doesn't feel like rolling over is the day you go to the ER. Do it to the wrong dog and you will end up in the ER.

We are all entitled to our own opinions, and mine is that besides being outdated, these practices just show a lack of self control and the short comings of the dogs trainer.

[Walleye Widower]

That has to be the best explaination I have ever heard

[Rick]

Without reading much of this thread, dominance with respect to dogs is the act of claiming space and possessions as ones own. The dominant one may allow the non-dominant one to use a space or possession with permission only.

There are many differant methods and tools used to accomplish this.

If you've never established dominance the easiest way to start in my opinion, is to physically work your way into the space of the dog you are establishing dominance with. If you are dealing with an agressive dog you may want to use a board or some other tool as a barrier. Fast forceful movements are not needed and can be counter-productive. Be realxed and confident while you are doing this.

Slowly forcing a dog into a space of your choosing and waiting for the dog to display a submissive relaxed behavior is a way. A key is patiently waiting for the dog to sit or lie down in the space you forced them into. The dog should be relaxed, ears down and not staring at you which is acceptance of your dominance.

Sometimes it can require a fair bit of patience. Especially with a dog that has claimed dominance. You can repeat this process whenever needed.

The biggest mistake I see is people allow their dogs to claim space without permission. The toy poodle jumping on the owners lap without being given permission is giving the poodle a dominant position. They are claiming ownership of both the space and possession.

You the owner have unwittingly given up dominance with respect to your own space and person. A fair amount of time a nippy, territorial, neurotic dog can be born out of this.

Any of the trainers here will tell you there may be other issues that require training and training is best accomplished from a dominant position.

[Walleye Widower]

Pretty similar to our retriever training, teach teach and make sure the dog fully understands befor any corrections use used.

Just out of curiosity, how do you teach the dog an exercise? Pick one, like heel, send out, hold item.....

[Todd Caswell]

We teach "HOLD" at the begining of our Force Fetch. Basic OB should be solid it will go much smoother if it is. Some people do this on a elevated table( more for the person not the dog) I just do it on the ground with the dog sitting at my side I start with a paint roller, give the hold command and roll the PR into his mouth, while putting alittle pressure on his lower jaw. Being patient if he spits it out it's NO and roll it back in. Over time after he has become more relaiable when he spits it out it will be "NO" a slight cuff under the chin with the roller roll back in and "Hold" From this we go to standing up beside the dog and eventually doing our basic OB on lead with the dog holding a bumper and then we begin our FF process

[Walleye Widower]

Todd, Here is how I do it if you care.....

I use marker training so bare with me for a minute or two

First, marker training is based on using a few words that are used for all training....everything. They are: Are you ready! Yes!, Nope!, Good!, all done! My dogs know these words through the initial stages of training. This is something I did not come up, I learned it from a guy who does seminars, DVD's and has a school for dog trainers. He is very credible, has put countless titles on dogs in many different venues. His dogs and dogs that are trained using this system are winning almost all the top spots in Nat'l trials, so it has been proven to work very effectively.

So...

Are you ready = we are going to do something, this gets the dogs motivation up and they know I have something they want.

Yes = dog gets a reward, I use food initially, then move to a tug\ball on a string (anything the dogs really likes, I like tugs because it is direct interaction with me and the dog, my dogs like to tug..)

Good = I like what you are doing, keep it up. It is a bridge to bring a complicated task together into one exercise.

Nope = no reward, try it again, at this point with my puppy and my older dog this is a form of correction and again gets motivation back up, they didnt get the reward they really want. NO collar correction needed.

All done = we are done for now, you dont have to pay attention to me, go do whatever...

Using this method it allows the trainer to pinpoint exact behaviors at the exact moment in time the dogs does something I want (teaching a behavior). Dogs trainers understand that you have about 1.5 seconds to either tell the dog something is right or wrong or you lost your opportunity and cause confusion in the dog. So, by using the core words we can bridge the gap in time, mark exactly what I want, when the dog hears YES, he takes a mental photo of what just happened, gets a reward and we are on our way. repeat, repeat, repeat. goes a lot faster then you think. NO compulsion used at this point in time and actually, I rarely have to use corrections if I did my job right in initial training. I always think if I need to correct I screwed up somewhere and I need to back my training up and re-teach the exercise.

So, for me teaching HOLD, it goes like this, and it is a pretty complicated thing to teach, and I am talking about something they generally dont like to have in the mouth, I dont use a toy for this exercise, I use 6" piece of 1" PVC, or small block of wood, keys, etc, not a toy he likes.

1. Hold the dogs muzzle with two hands (lightly not pinching the lips with teeth, and not cutting off his air), marking the behavior when they dont struggle, nothing in the mouth at all, just conditioning the behavior until the dog has a calm grip (= no chewing on object), No command given yet. I will do this for however many sessions it takes to have a calm grip.

2. Stick the PVC in mouth, hold with two hands like above. Marking a nice calm grip with Yes = dog can let go and get reward. that goes on for a while until time is added and the hold is nice, still no command give.

3. Go back to holding muzzle now starting to name the exercise, so command given then hold muzzle, mark- reward

4 by this time the dog knows what is going on so the will take the PVC, give command (HOLD) work on adding time, distance, speed,distractions, blah, blah...mark-reward

5. Start adding in me walking away from dog and having him come to me holding the item and bringing it to me holding it until I give the release command...mark - reward

That is one little piece of a nice retrieve, I break everything down into small steps like this and put them all together when the time is right and I will then have a high scoring nice retrieve with minimal force required. Plus every little piece of the retrieve is as perfect as I can get it and the dogs know how to perform each little step.