Lake Chips... Finding the Right One?

[bgreen82]

Hey guys, in the market for a chip to go in my Lowrance Elite 7. What types of things should I be looking at when comparing? 

 

Will mostly fish metro and within an hour of metro lakes, plus Croix and 'Sippi. 

 

Thanks in advance.

[delcecchi]

Basically you have two choices.  Lowrance insight uses lakemaster data, near as I can tell.  Navionics has their own data.  

I never could figure out all the hot spots maps and what data they  used and all the gold/platinum etc.  

I would go to the respective web sites and look at sample data for a couple lakes you know.   If you already have something with a chip in it, then you have experience with one set of data. 

[BoxMN]

We have always used one of either Navionics or Lakemaster. We have always found Lakemaster to be "better" or more accurate, it seemed. Also it just seems they are easier to read, not sure if it is the font or zoom or what. Used them in older Lowrance (up to Elite 5) but now Humminbird. If you have Hummibird then Lakemaster for sure. Have not seen the newest Insights so can't comment on that. We only use for MN though, plus some Canada, of which Navionics was the choice at the time quite a few years ago. Good luck.

[delcecchi]

There are two, or possibly three sets of data for any given lake.  

Lakemaster, Navionics, and Garmin. 

I think Insight uses lakemaster data, it does for Vermilion for sure.  At least last year it did. 

Lakemaster isn't available for lowrance any more so far as I know, since they got acquired. 

 

[ClownColor]

I have navionics platinum and have had zero issues. I would have settled for the premium maps but they were the same price at the time so I jumped on it.  The 3D mode is nice as my brain can see depth changes better for some reason. I did not care for my factor install insight. Navionics also has depth shading. 

[James Vladyka]

If you would like to see what Navionics has for mapping you can go to www.navionics.com and click on the Web app tab on the top right. 

[neptune]

I bought a lakemaster chip with a new humminbird unit last year and fish mainly Vermilion.  I always used Lakemaster in the past but It seems like my navionics app on my phone is far more accurate than the Lakemaster chip.  I will be buying a navionics chip for my humminbird this week.

[delcecchi]

Navionics has 1 foot contours on Vermilion, compared to the 3 foot Lakemaster contours. That said, I have not noticed inaccuracies on the West End of Vermilion in the Lakemaster data. 

[papadarv]

In 2011 a company named Johnson Outdoors (JO) purchased Humminbird corp., Minn Kota corp and LakeMaster corp. JO than made the three companies proprietary meaning they would only function, communicate work in JO products. Prior to 2012 LakeMaster sold versions of their lake chips that functioned in other devices including Lowrance, Garmin etc.

Lowrance than partnered  with Navonics to provide lake map and Motorguide trolling motors to compete with JO product "follow the contour". (Humminbird with LakeMaster GPS controlled the trolling motor)

Garman jumped on the band wagon and developed their own lake maps for their GPS products.

You can however get the LakeMaster lake mapping in a software called Contour Elite. Its computer based sells for around $150 for a given region/state. This mapping program does a lot including 3D mapping. Last summer I used my computer with a Gobalsat GPS receiver and used the Navonics smartphone/tablet app comparing Contour Elite LakeMaster and Navonics on Ottertail Lake running both at the same time. The computer had a much better GPS refresh rate and was better to manage boat control. Both maps look almost identical on Ottertail.

It appears, but I am not positive, all three of the lake map providers obtain their lake map data from the USGS National Geologic Map Database. Contour detail of a given lake is determined by the respective company ability to convert the USGS map data to human readable contours

[delcecchi]

Actually the companies have had boats with specialized equipment to map the lakes.  The Garmin boats were on Vermilion just a few years ago.  I saw them and wondered what they were doing out in front of our cabin.  Finally was able to see "Garmin" on the side of the boat.

I believe there are three sets of proprietary data around.  BTW Lowrance lake insight looks just like lakemaster for Vermilon.

[papadarv]

18 hours ago, delcecchi said:

Actually the companies have had boats with specialized equipment to map the lakes.  The Garmin boats were on Vermilion just a few years ago.  I saw them and wondered what they were doing out in front of our cabin.  Finally was able to see "Garmin" on the side of the boat.

I believe there are three sets of proprietary data around.  BTW Lowrance lake insight looks just like lakemaster for Vermilon.

I do believe you just confirmed most of the lake map generation originates from the same data source. You will also find Ottertail lake, Coon Lake, Big Marine, Green and many more lakes that have almost an exact contour match between LakeMaster, Navonics. and Lake Insight. They use the same original source data. Starting about 2011 many lakes looked the same from both companies.

Each of the companies use different methods to improve our enhance the lake data accuracy. Navonics teamed with Lowrance where you can create your own lake map from Lowrance sonar logs. Navonics also teamed with Vexilar and their SonarPhone using the Vexilar SonarPhone app merged to the Navonics boating app. This combo also allows you to create  a real time contour map.  When you do you also agree to share the collected data when Navonics send a free map update to your region selected.

LakeMaster teamed with Humminbird and uses sonar data logs from humminbird products to improve their maps.

Lake Insight is owned by Navico Inc. They are also the parent company of Lowrance, Eage, Simrad  and several other companies. Their mapping improvements also come from Lowrence sonar logs. Their are some Navonics and Lake Insight YouTube videos showing how they do this.

I believe that Garmin determined is was not very cost effective to put their own boats on the water to collect sonar data. Can't find any resource or information on how they improve their lake map products today.

Navonics has the most comprehensive mapping data of the lake map providers so I stay with Navonics.

[delcecchi]

No, I did not confirm that.  Lakemaster, Navionics, and Garmin independently surveyed Lake Vermilion.  I saw the Garmin boats with my own eyes. 

There is some base data from the 1930's that was gathered by students with surveying equipment drilling holes in the ice and measuring the depth with weighed lines for the state. 

That is the data available for free from lakefinder and the state of Minnesota. 

[papadarv]

I did see a post on another Forum with Garmin sonar boats about 4 years ago. I believe they scrubbed that idea shortly thereafter.  

There are thousands of lakes in Minnesota alone, many have same mapping from each company. You truly believe LakeMaster, Navonics and Garmin surveyed all these lakes. Just give it some thought and expand your research beyond 1930.

Edited May 21, 2016 by papadarv

[delcecchi]

So do you have any actual proof of your opinion?  I saw the Garmin boats back a few years ago with my very own eyeballs.  Of course each lake only needs to be surveyed once by each provider.  The Vermilion survey by Lakemaster (same data used by insight from Lowrance) was done back a good while, early in the fancy electronic map era.  I could go look for the CD I bought.... 

Navionics data survey was years later for Vermilion and was 1 foot contours. 

I'm sure there is buying and selling of data among the providers, but there are not enough dudes uploading to get good base coverage of a lake like Vermilion.  

 

[papadarv]

Not my opinion. It's extensive research and communicating with Navonics on enhancements for past 2 years.

Edited May 21, 2016 by papadarv

[delcecchi]

So we just take your word for it....

OK, whatever you say.  No skin off my nose.

[papadarv]

Just a couple tid-bits

Time line Navico History

1985 - rebranded from Euromarine to Navico and moved to Star Lane Margate in Kent UK

2005 – Altor 2003 Fund acquires Simrad Yachting AS from Kongsberg Group

2006 (March) – Altor 2003 Fund acquires Lowrance Electronics Inc (incorporating Lowrance and Eagle)

2006 (September) – Navico is created by the merger of Simrad Yachting Inc and Lowrance Electronics Inc

2007 – Navico acquires the marine electronics division of Brunswick New Technologies Inc – bringing the Northstar, Navman (marine) and MX Marine brands into the group.

2008 – The Navman marine range is integrated into the Northstar product family in line with the terms of the original acquisition agreement.

2008 – The MX Marine range is merged into Simrad Yachting

 

http://www.johnsonoutdoors.com/Main.aspx?id=51

Navonics History Everybody is familiar with GPS as used in cars and airline displays. Not everybody is aware that Navionics is the one that pioneered it all: simply stated, Navionics changed the way people navigate by bringing to market the world's first electronic chart device in 1984, called the Geonav. Until then, several others had belabored on the concept, but nobody was able to turn the idea into a viable product, that truly worked and could be bought off a shelf. It is no surprise that some compared the revolution brought by Navionics to the revolution brought by the magnetic compass.   Been around since 2012

Edited May 21, 2016 by papadarv

[papadarv]

And here is the Navonics SonarChart Live. They have a business relations with Navico, Garmin, Lowrance, Simard and quite a few others. I do believe it was more cost effective for Garmin to scrub the boat on water method and jump on the Navonics train.

http://www.navionics.com/en/sonarchart-live

LakeMaster offered "AutoChart" to do similar charting on Humminbird sonar in 2013. Cost of the chip to do this is $170 to $250 depending where you buy it.

Navonics Boating App sells for $10 per year ($4.99 renewal each year thereafter). The boating App linked to Vexilar SonarPhone, Raymarine, GoFree, Lowrance, Digital Yacht and something new called Multifunction display to do the SonarChart live. I know Navonics uses the data because one point on Coon where I did an extensive SonarChart was use to re-map that portion on Coon Lake on an automatic update I received a month later. LakeMaste still has the old contour which is identical the to pre-updated Navonics. This concept is brilliant with thousands of boaters on the water updating contours. Click on some of the video to see how it works.

Navonics also offers ChartPlotter which works on the Lowarance, Garmin etc. plotters. I believe its $99.00

Edited May 21, 2016 by papadarv

[delcecchi]

You don't need to post commercials.  We have already seen them.  

Lakemaster was mapping Minnesota lakes before Navionics.  Lowrance still sells  data that Lakemaster made, although Lakemaster was acquired by Johnson Outdoors, and no longer supports Lowrance with the Lakemaster brand.  

There are a few guys on here, you being one, who post in a way that leads me to believe they have a financial relationship with Navionics.   So, let me ask, are you and employee or consultant or sponsored by Navionics?  Do you receive anything of value from them? 

----nest post---

The plot thickens.  Apparently Navionics and Garmin are, or were last year, practically at war over charting data.  See this post....

http://www.panbo.com/archives/2015/03/the_navionics_sonarcharts_for_garmin_conflict_messy_business.html

------

 

Navionics announced SonarCharts for Garmin during the Miami show, and the enticing HD bathymetry map for Garmin GPS page above went live shortly thereafter. The concept is attractive as the first real alternative to Garmin's own charts and one with nearly worldwide coverage and support for crowdsourced depth data that you can easily improve yourself. But a prospective buyer who clicks on the little, "Verify that your plotter is compatible with this product here..." link will discover a very disturbing caveat:

- See more at: http://www.panbo.com/archives/2015/03/the_navionics_sonarcharts_for_garmin_conflict_messy_business.html#sthash.yHTp36BN.dpuf

Basically Garmin is not happy and has said they may change the software in their units to make it not compatible with Navionics chips.   Apparently Navionics neglected to get authorization from Garmin to sell charts for Garmin units.  And Navionics seems to have not wanted to license their data to Garmin. 

Now this information is a year old and suddenly they could have, as businesses do, become good buddies.   But the following, from

http://www.navionics.com/en/compatibility-guide-sonarchart-garmin-plotters

would indicate not. 

----------------------------------------------------------

Navionics SonarChart™ for use with Garmin chartplotters and handhelds have been successfully beta-tested on several Garmin GPS devices that use SD/MSD cards for their charts.

However, we must inform users that, in December 2014, Garmin announced a change to their software thus making their devices incompatible with Navionics charts. Customers that utilize software version 2015.0202 or newer will no longer be able to use Navionics charts.

For any enquiries on software updates on Garmin plotters please contact Garmin customer service ( www.garmin.com/us/support/contact ).

 

Edited May 21, 2016 by delcecchi

[papadarv]

27 minutes ago, delcecchi said:

You don't need to post commercials.  We have already seen them.  

Lakemaster was mapping Minnesota lakes before Navionics.  Lowrance still sells  data that Lakemaster made, although Lakemaster was acquired by Johnson Outdoors, and no longer supports Lowrance with the Lakemaster brand.  

There are a few guys on here, you being one, who post in a way that leads me to believe they have a financial relationship with Navionics.   So, let me ask, are you and employee or consultant or sponsored by Navionics?  Do you receive anything of value from them? 

You may have forgotten, but you asked me the same question a year ago. Answer is still NO, I do not have any relationship or financial or other value received from either Vexilar, Navonics, Clam, Eskimo, WAZE or any other manufacture I have posted with. I have a passion for things that work well and research much of business efforts of each.

Where can I buy a LakeMaster card produced after 2012 that works on Lowrance?

With the Garmin now at war, are they likely go back to the boats in the water you witnessed several years ago?

You also seem to focus on one small thing on your posts, in this case Garmin. I gave my Garmin away, the one with lifetime road map updates and lakemaster chip. I moved to Navonics for lake data and WAZE for roadmap. If your interested, I can share a great deal of information on WAZE who use users to update their map.

[papadarv]

2 hours ago, delcecchi said:

You don't need to post commercials.  We have already seen them.  

Lakemaster was mapping Minnesota lakes before Navionics.  Lowrance still sells  data that Lakemaster made, although Lakemaster was acquired by Johnson Outdoors, and no longer supports Lowrance with the Lakemaster brand.  

There are a few guys on here, you being one, who post in a way that leads me to believe they have a financial relationship with Navionics.   So, let me ask, are you and employee or consultant or sponsored by Navionics?  Do you receive anything of value from them? 

----nest post---

The plot thickens.  Apparently Navionics and Garmin are, or were last year, practically at war over charting data.  See this post....

http://www.panbo.com/archives/2015/03/the_navionics_sonarcharts_for_garmin_conflict_messy_business.html

------

 

Navionics announced SonarCharts for Garmin during the Miami show, and the enticing HD bathymetry map for Garmin GPS page above went live shortly thereafter. The concept is attractive as the first real alternative to Garmin's own charts and one with nearly worldwide coverage and support for crowdsourced depth data that you can easily improve yourself. But a prospective buyer who clicks on the little, "Verify that your plotter is compatible with this product here..." link will discover a very disturbing caveat:

- See more at: http://www.panbo.com/archives/2015/03/the_navionics_sonarcharts_for_garmin_conflict_messy_business.html#sthash.yHTp36BN.dpuf

Basically Garmin is not happy and has said they may change the software in their units to make it not compatible with Navionics chips.   Apparently Navionics neglected to get authorization from Garmin to sell charts for Garmin units.  And Navionics seems to have not wanted to license their data to Garmin. 

Now this information is a year old and suddenly they could have, as businesses do, become good buddies.   But the following, from

http://www.navionics.com/en/compatibility-guide-sonarchart-garmin-plotters

would indicate not. 

----------------------------------------------------------

Navionics SonarChart™ for use with Garmin chartplotters and handhelds have been successfully beta-tested on several Garmin GPS devices that use SD/MSD cards for their charts.

However, we must inform users that, in December 2014, Garmin announced a change to their software thus making their devices incompatible with Navionics charts. Customers that utilize software version 2015.0202 or newer will no longer be able to use Navionics charts.

For any enquiries on software updates on Garmin plotters please contact Garmin customer service ( www.garmin.com/us/support/contact ).

Real cool, your using the same so called Commercials to enhance your point with Garman. I thought you said everyone has already seen them. I do believe the Garmin market is quite small in the Navonics total business plan.

[delcecchi]

1 hour ago, papadarv said:

Real cool, your using the same so called Commercials to enhance your point with Garman. I thought you said everyone has already seen them. I do believe the Garmin market is quite small in the Navonics total business plan.

I thought you said Garmin was licensing data from Navionics?    And I wouldn't know if Garmin was still mapping, since I saw them on Vermilion, and they would have no reason to come back.  

As for lakemaster, the data for Vermilion that was on my Lakemaster chip in my two older Lowrance units, both of which died an early death (one filled up with water), is as far as I can tell from looking at the maps, identical to the data for Vermilion contained on the Lowrance Insight chip in the new unit purchased in 2015.   Since Lowrance had no data of their own and had a relation of some kind with Lakemaster it certainly appears that while Lakemaster no longer sells chips for Lowrance units their data is still being used by Lowrance.  

Is it possible that who is licensing what to whom got mixed up in the telling?   

Right now, my take is that Johnson Outdoors has licensed data to Lowrance, and Navionics is fighting with Garmin over data licensing and interface authorization. 

And I greatly enjoy people talking about their personal experiences with something, more than canned stuff.   Your preferences may vary. 

 

[BoxMN]

FWIW, I am a Lakemaster fan as my notes above say. But this weekend we were on Sturgeon Lake along 35 in MN, and had both Lakemaster and Nav chips side by side, and the Nav was much better, and it was on our Elite5. I don't think that lake had been scanned using the 1 foot increments yet for LM but it had for Nav. What a difference!

It also helped confirm that us using two 5 inch units works better for us than one 10 inch unit. Cost is much less, can save you if one would go down for some reason, and having two different chips worked out great.

So really it still does depend a lot on what individual lakes you are going to use them on. Our chips I think are about 2 years old, so updated chips might help out. For the most part though, the LM seem to be better for the lakes we fish, and for our HB units.

[delcecchi]

I don't think that Lakemastr supports Lowrance.  So Navionics, one flavor or anothr, or insight which uses some Lakemastr data.