Play biting vs. aggressive biting

[TylerS]

OK...here is one of -- what I'm sure will be -- a number of posts by me asking questions about the new pup (since, apparently, all the research and reading I did PRIOR to the dog has mysteriously been erased from my memory banks and replaced with blank stares and dumbfounded head scratching...)

So, my new GWP, Remy, just turned 10 wks old today (we've had him since July 22). He is very obviously still a pup. We are working on a plethora of things, from housebreaking (looong way to go) to heeling (heck, just going for walks in general) to fetch, etc, etc.

But the one thing I want to nip in the rear right away is biting. Now, I know, that pups have this thing with mouths. They're used to biting and roughhousing with their littermates and see a person's hand as a sort of "mouth." Naturally, their instinct is to bite/mouth it as they would their fellow dogs.

The "Green Bible" (a.k.a. NAVHDA Training Guide) said I should refrain from negative stimulation until he is at least a year old. Likewise, I've heard the best solution to this problem is distraction followed by the introduction of a different toy or new experience (thus, making him forget about the biting, at least for a while).

But it is really starting to get rediculous. He has growled at both my wife and I on separate occasions, and because that, to me, is a HUUUGE NO, I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and growled NO until he went limp. This seemed to help but he growled at my wife again last night (which might have been her fault since he was pretty tuckered out and he acts up quite a bit when he gets tired...still, no excuse in my book for that behavior).

He also has gotten into the habit of nipping at our hands and anything connected to us. It's a sort of game to him. We have tried to keep "no" to a minimum, as I've been told that doesn't help much at this stage in his life since he doesn't understand the concept of "no," but sometimes something has to be done. He did it again this morning, we were playing with some of his toys and he dropped the toys and proceeded to go after me. Not aggressively, mind you, but he was nipping and biting and getting wild. Puppy stuff, but not things I want to encourage...

I've been told by several people, the breeder included, that he will surely outgrow this stage. I sure hope so. My family dog growing up was a Welsh Corgi, and she never outgrew that stage (had to be put down at 7 because she bit a neighbor kid), so excuse me if I'm a tad skeptical.

Has anyone had this kind of problem? I picked this pup and breeder because I've heard from several owners of his pups that they are very laid back compared to some GWPs. Is it a stage? Will he outgrow it or should we be a bit more proactive with our responses? Is it a reaction to being left alone for 3-4 hours at a time (I come home every day at lunch when my wife works to let Remy out and play with him before going back to work until 4:30).

The worst thing I could be told right now would be to get rid of the pup because this is a sign of aggression. I honestly want to believe he is just being a puppy and I think he is. The growling instances probably were a provocation of some kind on our part that we weren't quite aware of, but the play biting is just getting to me...

Also, this is "my" first dog, we're both on a steep learning curve. It has only been a week, and I know that being patient is the biggest factor on my part. I can be patient, but I'd rather stop bad habits before they start, if possible.

Sorry for the long, rambling post. Just wanted to give plenty of detail so I get accurate responses.

Thanks much,

TylerS

[TylerS]

Well...I kind of answered my own question after doing a quick search (should have done that in the first place...sorry guys).

Still, I've tried a few of the suggestions without effect.

For example:

High-pitched "OUCH" without luck.

Holding mouth shut and giving firm "no" yielded opposite result (more persistent biting).

Holding top lips over canine teeth until he whines yielded more biting.

Forcing gag reflex yielded slight licking...then more biting.

Redirection works for a short while...like 5 seconds.

I think he is just a very dominant pup. He hates being held on his back. Doing as such actually caused a couple growling situations. Do you keep doing that even though it seems to wind him up? Is there a last-ditch situation? Should I brush it off as "being a puppy?"

I'm so confused...I wish I would have interned at a kennel when I was a kid...

[HookEmHard84]

Tyler,

I have a 13 week old GSP right now. I'm definitely no expert, as this is my first pup, but from what I've learned so far, your experience is pretty normal.

Our pup had (kind of still has) the same problem, and like you, its something I want to stop ASAP! A nipping dog is a huge pain in the rear! One thing everyone keeps reminding me of is that he is still VERY young, and you can not expect miracles out of him. That being said, there is plenty you can start doing.

A couple things that have really helped with our pup are:

1. Keep up with picking him up and holding him on his back. If he squirms, grab his chest and squeeze lightly until he stops. A friend told me to start doing this right away, and we also learned the importance of it at Puppy Kindergarten. It helps establish your dominance over them, and for our pup it has really helped not only with biting, but with a lot of other training. He is getting big, but i still do it every day.

2. Stay consistent with the method you use to scold the biting. I use the "bass grab (grab him like a bass, and squeeze his tongue down against his bottom jaw)" and saying "ouch". At first he was pretty un-phased by it, but now most of the time if I say "ouch" he will quit.

3. If you are handling him and he starts to get mouthy, stand up and ignore him. This helps our pup realize its time to quit doing that, or go find a toy he can chew on.

4. Get more chew toys! For our pup, it helps him not chew on us and chew on his toys instead. He has such a short attention span, that the 6 toys we started with weren’t nearly enough. Our living room floor now looks like a puppy carnival, but he has plenty of stuff to distract him with if he starts biting us.

Hope this helps. Once again, I'm no expert, but I have listened to a bunch of them, and this has what’s worked in my experience in the last 5 weeks we have had the little guy around.

[TylerS]

Thanks! If you'd have said you had a GWP I'd have thought our pups were from the same litter! Good to know my case isn't out of the ordinary.

I'm going to try doing the "bass grab." He is a darn persistent bugger, but hopefully he gets the point across in time.

That's good advice on the back thing. It's funny, but he was a lot more receptive of the treatment the first couple days at home than he is now. Think some re-establishment of the hierarchy is in order!

[BOUNCED]

"The "Green Bible" (a.k.a. NAVHDA Training Guide) said I should refrain from negative stimulation until he is at least a year old."

If you wait 1 year you're going to have waaay more problems than play biting.

According to Wolters (Gun dog, Water Dog) discipline should start at 12 weeks. I've picked up all my dogs by 7 weeks and started mild training immediately (sit, stay, come, heal) with no reprimand for bad behavior. After 12 weeks it's puppy bootcamp. It takes a man with a hell of a lot more patients than me to deal with a dog who has a years worth of bad habits to break.

Put that "Green Bible" away pick up a copy of Gun dog.

[pikehunter]

One of the books I read before I picked up my now-two-year-old Brit had a couple pages of Alpha exercizes designed to make sure that the Pup knew who the boss was. They only took about 15 minutes and I put him through them every night after a walk for the first two months I had him. It went a long way in determining our home hierarchy.

When he would play-bite too hard, or nip, I would flip him on his back and put my hand around his throat. I applied no pressure with the hand, but it helped him realize it wasn't play time.

By the time he was 5 or 6 months old, the most effective thing I could do was to get up, move away and ignore him completely for five minutes. He would be absolutely crushed, and end up laying on his dog bed looking all mopey. But maybe mine is the sentimental sort.

Good luck!

[gr8icefishinmind]

"Keep up with picking him up and holding him on his back. If he squirms, grab his chest and squeeze lightly until he stops. A friend told me to start doing this right away, and we also learned the importance of it at Puppy Kindergarten. It helps establish your dominance over them, and for our pup it has really helped not only with biting, but with a lot of other training. He is getting big, but i still do it every day"

This works great for the dominance thing but not sure how it would help with biting!

The exercise you are talking about should be done once a day but there is more to it than just putting it on its back! You sit the dog in front of you with him facing away........grab him under his front legs and gently twist his front down to the ground with his legs away from you.......then place on hand on its front shoulder and one on its midsection but not forcefully, just enough pressure so the dog knows you are there! While it is on the ground and not fussing give him praise by saying good boy/girl in a soft voice, if the dog tries to get up hold him down and say with a stern growly voice "bad dog" until the dog relaxs again but make sure to never give in to the dog during this as the dog then feels as though it has won! They submit to you when they quit fussing and actually relax in front of you (which happens when the dog lets out of big breathe of air almost like a big sigh of relief) and puts its tail between its legs and shows you its underside! It takes a while but after 10-15 days of doing the exercise you will find that the dog should give in right away and not fuss at all!

With my pup this was easy as he was pretty submissive but not overly and still had a few dominant traits! After a few days, i could put him on his side without any problems! He is now 7 months and if he begins to misbehave badly I either put him on his side and do that excersise OR i pick him up from under his front shoulders and hold him straight out in front of me so he has no control (that one has gotten hard to do though as he is beginning to put on a few pounds) and instantly the bad behavior stops! It's actually kind of cool and does help with the trust factor which is a huge thing!@

[gr8icefishinmind]

Forgot to mention that when you put the dog on its back and it doesn't squirm make sure to say good dog good dog in a friendly voice! Funny how the tone of your voice while talking to the dog can give different reactions just in the pitch of your voice!

[HookEmHard84]

"This works great for the dominance thing but not sure how it would help with biting!"

I guess for us it has just helped with everything related to obedience. If your dog think he dominates you, he will not listen as well to your commands (at least that’s what they are teaching us at puppy kindergarten). After I started doing it, I got a lot more response out of him when I used the "ouch" command for biting.