Telling size of fish with electronics

[Ice Hole]

D-man ...Very rarely do you get a 1/2" red bar on the vex. That has only happened a few times for me, when a larger pike or bass moves in. With the proper gain setting, fish will appear anywhere from a thin red line to a huge thick 1/2" red bar. There is a scale there from small to very big, with many in between. You brought up a valid point, which I am always b!itchin about on the ice. You have a nice red blip comin in on your lure ...big fish comin in ...Then that larger red blip seperates into 2 smaller fish. That is feasable, and it happens, but usually you can get one to commit and seperate from the other fishies if it really is 2. A fish turns sideways, you momentarilly think you have a blue wale under your feet. I have done A LOT of reading on this stuff, as I sold them for 3 years at a major sporting goods store. My budy wrote a big paper for college about this, so I have picked up a lot from him as well. I don't like having bad info, so do correct me, but I am pretty sure I am not in left field here The size thing is on a day by day basis, as the "size profiles" of the blips changes. (depth, temperature, many things affect how fish will appear) I have never caught a fish that I didn't know was a walleye before it bit. You can tell by its profile, how it moves, the size of the bar, there are many clues to look for that you can put together pretty easily. Crappies and Bluegills are hard to differentiate between, but if its dark and 7 pm at night, you can bet its a crappie. Pike seem to have that "double band" effect when they come in. Just get out on the water and try the things I have talked about.

[This message has been edited by GullGuide (edited 01-14-2003).]

[Mr. Pike1]

I want to believe but I can not believe in a falasy. You can flip a coin 100 time and the laws of probability dictate that 50 times out of 100 you will get heads. Drop an apple 100 times and the laws of gravity dictate that 100 times out of 100 the apple will fall to the ground. Drop a Vex through an ice hole and 100 times out of 100 it will mark a target in its cone range. 0 times out of 100 will it determine the size or the species of fish....I have presented all the logic I can to support the facts.

[Guest]

Do i own a Vex? I think you do more posting than reading. I was using flashers when you were in grade school. Some day i'll set you on my lap and explain it to you. Do you go out onto new lakes, put your ducer down the hole and tell your buddies what kind of fish it is? Non-sense, you know whats in the lake your fishing. Ofcourse you can tell what it is, you know what your fishing for. Possibly you can tell spieces by a reaction. You sold flashers for three years? I sold them for 11 years, does that mean iam right, ofcourse not. If i built them for 11 years, maybe.

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[Guest]

Icehole. Lets meet up on S and you can show me.

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[Mr. Pike1]

Iceman, Next thing you are going to tell me is that when fishing with a bobber you can tell the species and size of fish by the way bobber goes under the water. Heck maybe I will start marketing a bobber that has a light on it that is color coded by species (red-walleye yellow-northern, green-perch.....you get the idea) of fish and the brighter the light the larger the fish because this makes as much tech sense as the faulty beleif that the Vex can perform such miracles on ice !!!!

[Guest]

I just couldn't hold back on posting on this. I've owned a FL-8 since 1988 and before that I owned a FL-6. I would say 2 out of 10 times I could guess (and that's all it is) that the fish is a big fish compared to the 4 inch gill I just caught. That's not even as good as flipping a coin. I might be able to guess what species it is 5 out of 10 times. And that isn't solely based off what I see on the flasher (i.e. you know what's in the lake and where they are). But, you can usually tell little perch or sunnies and you can tell if the fish is a pike because it cleared out all the the little sunnies and perch before it bit you off. But once again, other variables help you make that guess.

So, if someone would demonstrate to me that they can be right 90% of the time, I might buy into it (but since it isn't based on sound science, probably not). But, we'll need to eliminate all other variables. Until then, I'll side with the D-Man and other non-believers and state that what you are seeing is an USF (Unidentified Swimming Fish).

[Eyewitness]

Mr. Pike1, I don't think anyone has implied here that one can tell exactly what kind of fish lies beneath you as you stare into an eight inch hole. I do find your comments humorous however, as IMHO you probably haven't enough experience to tell what your reading on your FL-18. I hope you caught the Lindners new show today, as it made me laugh aloud to myself when Big Al says right to the camara "the wonderful thing about these Vexilars is that you can tell how big a fish is by the signal you're reading", and then spends the next 5 minutes showing real examples while he's pike fishing deep water with Jimmy Lindner. I about fell out of my chair thinking about this post. If you can say you have a few years experience and "hundreds' of fish caught through the ice while using one I think your opinion might change a little. Is it 100% accurate? Of course not. With experience though, you can tell an aweful lot, a large percentage of the time......

[Eyewitness]

After reading my first line I have to retract my statement regarding anyone implying species ID with a Vex. Sorry Iceman, if you are fishing an area dominated by one species like crappies or walleyes you can be reasonably confident that what's down there is what you think it is. There is no way that you can tell by looking at the signal however. It just isn't possible......

[This message has been edited by Eyewitness (edited 01-11-2003).]

[Mr. Pike1]

icehousebob, your comments/assumtion is very much respected. Truth be told I have fished for 31 years and spent many many hours on the water. I have a passion/addiciton for the sport of fishing and cherish every moment and memory I have shared with my father, friends, dog, and nature while fishing. The intent of my posts today were meant to be strickly for entertainment purposes with a bit of science/logic mixed in to make everyone think and support my point of view. My hope was nothing more then to make a few guys smile/chuckle and not to offend anyone. I unfortunatly had to work today and this thread got me through a long painful day at the office while my buddies were out on the hard water.

[This message has been edited by Mr. Pike1 (edited 01-11-2003).]

[muchowja]

In my experience you can usually tell if a fish is really small but once a fish reaches a certain size they all read the same on the display. I think that the cutoff is right around that 8 inch mark. Just my experience with my 18.

[Ice Hole]

I guess I forgot to mention all this "vex-esp" is done WHILE FISHING. Almost half of it is determined by how the fish moves, what it looks like when it moves, how fast, etc. Its not like you can go to a hole with no rod, drop the ducer in, and tell what kind of fish or how big the fish are. THAT is impossible. What al linder refered to in his video is what I claim to be able to do.

[Guest]

Sure sounds good, send me mail.

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[Guest]

D-Man,Im not trying to be a smart *** or anything OK,I just have to reply to the half inch ?.If your vex shows your jig as a small green,maybe aliitle yellow bar,and the fish are showing 1/8inch yellow maybe alittle red bar,and they are faily smaller ,then see you a SOLID 1/2inch all RED bar moving in.Is that the same small fish lying on its side?maybe.But more likly its a bigger fish that came to eat those little fish.1/2 inch is a wide bar to see on your vex,if your bait is showing up that wide you should probably turn your gain down. I have litterly seen the whole bottom come 31/2' up to hit my bait,only to find out it was actually a relly nice fish.again dont take this wrong,just puttin up a little arguement.Good fishin everyone.

[Guest]

The bar gets wider as the fish enters the cone, the cone doesn't make the fish bigger than it really is. It would just make more sense that a bigger fish would make a bigger bar, but as Vex has stated, its the echo strenght that determines the size of the target, meaning once the fish is in the center of the cone, the biggest bar will show, and that bar only gets 1/2 inch max.

About your concept, its possible the swim bladder holds more density than your jig making for a stronger signal thus the red mark?

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[This message has been edited by D-man (edited 01-11-2003).]

[Guest]

Then why do different size jigs show up as different strength signals? They are always in the center of the cone.

Why does a small Crappie Minnow show smaller then a fathead?

PCG

[Cyberfish]

><}}}("< ---But if you have the gain adjusted properly so the jig only is marking green, then a dinky perch will not give a continuous solid red mark, even in the center of the cone. unless you are fishing in really shallow water! If you have the gain up too high, or are in shallow enough water that your jig is marking red, then all sizes of fish will put out a strong red mark when in the center.

[Guest]

Jigs will show differently, more lead, more density, Its about signal(echo) strength.

Yes, your little Perch may or may not show red depending on its density?

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[This message has been edited by D-man (edited 01-11-2003).]

[Cyberfish]

><}}}("< ---Density? Doesn't that mean then that we can tell bigger fish, (more dense) from smaller fish (less dense)
Mabye we should take this to the chat room instead of filling to much space here?

[Guest]

"up to" 1/2 if seperation, meaning when a fish regardless of size and density will show no bigger than a 1/2 inch bar when in the center of the cone.

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[Guest]

Not sure that you read my whole post. I was quoting from a Vexilar engineer. Its about density.

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[This message has been edited by D-man (edited 01-13-2003).]

[Pig_sticka]

what about density?
if i dropped a lead weight down the hole it would show up the same as if i dropped a wet rag down there, or foam.
if k-y=p2rz then the fish will show up l2ty-pr

[This message has been edited by GullGuide (edited 01-14-2003).]

[Fisher Dave]

pig-sticka ... I would be careful how much you carry on about the subject at hand. I wont make a comment to start anything more than whats out there ... but D man is correct.

I would recommend talking to an engineer at any sonar company, they will all tell you the exact same thing, but may all explain it a little differently.

[Guest]

Interesting thoughts by everybody. I am surprised noone has mentioned the sound the Vex makes. I use my Vex year round and have started to hone in on it's subtleties.

When ice fishing with a jig my Vex makes a certain sound (whirring) when fish approach the cone the sound changes (gets deeper) and when the fish goes to bite and gets close to my bait the sound changes again. I listen for the deeper whirring while the fish is showing as green light, then when the fish moves closer the orange/red appear and the whirring gets a deeper tone to it. SOMETIMES, when I catch a small fish on the vex I dont ever hear that deep tone made by the Vex, while other big fish I catch I always hear that tone (almost like the vex is workin harder to mark a bigger object)

However determining species is a little hard for me to believe, but size I think it is possible to tell between a perch and a pike, not a 7 inch crappie and a 12 inch crappie.

Anyone else listen to the Vex, the sounds it makes, or is that just me being a musician?

morriscode

[Pig_sticka]

im cool just and interestin subject. morris i have heard those sounds, it has to bug the fish though, sometimes it seems like it would.
d-man. just a quick thing about the lines. if your fishing the autozoom the fish do show up alot better on size. if you have it on 2x and no zoom then yes you cant tell a darn thing your fishing for. try autozoom if it still shows that every line is tiny then i donno.
maybe it is just a fl-18 thing then. cuz that thing can really read good.
peace

[Guest]

I read the same article, and I disagree.

With enough experience and God only knows how many hours I have spent watching my "Hondex", I honestly can tell the size of the fish near my bait. Size, not species, size.

This past weekend, for example, between my buddy and I we caught a 24" eye and (4) 18" eyes. Also about 10 perch and a couple pike. With the camera down one hole and watching the sonar from the other side of the house, and the camera watching the walleye eat the minnow and jig, I could see both in front of my eyes. Graph down one hole, camera watching it as it happened. The 24" fish showed a huge red "blob" on the graph and it took up about 1.5-2' foot marks on the screen. That was at #2 sensitivity. This is all when the fish is directly near the bait. (21' of water and when the largest fish was present the graph showed I was in 19' of water, solid red.)

Although a perch rolled into the scene and that indicated a smaller red "blob" on the screen.

A pike, however, indicated a slightly smaller red "blob" on the screen compared to the large walleye.

While ice fishing, and stationary (might be different in a boat in the summer?) I honestly feel I can determine size. I've been using this same graph for at least 13 years, if not more.

With an LCD in the summer, I have no clue as to size. I would have to have a camera watching everything to determine that! That I cannot, and will not do.