Can an American Cocker still hunt?

[2 DA GILLS]

He does not shed that much, but he does shed and they are the wire hairs. I noticed the reduced shedding though, the neighbors yellow lab rubbed against my black pants the other day and my pants were full of hair. My griffon does not do that.

Back to the subject though. I mentioned field breed cockers to my wife last night and she was not as positive as I thought she would be. She wants a mini pinscher or rat terrier. I will have to see where we stand in 10 years or so.

[Big Dave2]

Quote:

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She wants a mini pinscher or rat terrier. I will have to see where we stand in 10 years or so.

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I know you didn't ask for my 2 bit opinion but here it is: Take the next 10 years to TALK HER OUT OF IT!

I have had many rat terriers and I will say that they are amazing little dogs, very smart and athletic, but HYPER! I also have had 2 friends who have had miniature pinchers and they are the same thing. If you get one of these you may want to put it outside and bring in the Griff.

These are just my experiences with these dogs, I am sure there are some people here who have had just the opposite experience.

[Try Too Fish]

Have your wife watch the dog whisper show for a while!

I think the 2 breeds on there most often with issues are the mini pincher and the small terrors (mis-spelled on purpose)!!

[LABS4ME]

Well a quick update and an article I just found on the internet. The breeder of my dog is Jeff Thomas who is quoted a couple of times throughout the article.

Chaser is now fairly steadied up. He remains sitting at heel until sent for a retrieve 9 times out of 10. His gun introduction has been going without a hitch and his quartering and use of his nose is rapidly becoming one of his favorite things to do. When we are done training, I almost have to drag him out the grass... he just keeps going. I really like how close he quarters. It is rare for him to get more than 20 yards out from me, but it is almost dizzying watching him work. I was going to go to a preserve this week and work him on some live chukar, but my wife took him hostage and left for the cabin with him and kids in tow for spring break... birds will have to wait till next week!

Here's the article: sorry the photos didn't transfer... they were pretty cool to see.

Second Coming of the American Cocker

written by James Card

Pound for pound, the American cocker spaniel is the toughest gun dog out there -- and it's making a comeback.

A mouthful of bird. American cockers are expected to handle all gamebirds: from the woodcock that gives them the name "cocker" to wrangling a Canada goose with confidence. Photo by Vickie Dahlk.

Lady was her name and, with big eyes and honey brown tresses, she was the cocker spaniel that entered American consciousness in 1955. Her owner: Walt Disney. She was the co-star in animation film Lady and the Tramp, and whether the Disney crew knew it or not, they were glamorizing a breed that had already reached a height of popularity no other breed has matched since.

The American cocker spaniel held the number one spot for A.K.C. registrations from 1936 to 1952. Later they were at the top of the list from 1983 to 1990 for a total of 23 years as America's most popular purebred.

The popularity of the breed translated into many things over the years: because of their undeniable cute looks they excelled in the show ring and were bred likewise. The popularity meant market demand, and the American cocker breed became associated with unscrupulous puppy mills that bred cockers with little regard for conformation, health concerns or hunting abilities.

Among bird hunters, the prevailing sentiment was that American cockers were diminished as sporting breed because of the emphasis of being a home companion and a show ring star. In his book, A Rough Shooting Dog, Charles Fergus wrote, "The American cocker was once a superior grouse and woodcock dog. Today it is a pop-eyed lap pet with a penchant for [PoorWordUsage]ing on the carpet." This sorry sentence is a biased cheap shot on American cockers in an otherwise brilliant memoir of upland hunting.

The American cocker spaniel has a long history as a hunting dog, and while they have been looked upon as an over popularized house pet, handfuls of bird hunters across the United States continue to train and bred the American cocker for their field abilities.

James B. Spencer revised his opinion of the American cocker in the second edition of his well-regarded book, HUP! Training Flushing Spaniels the American Way, mentioning that he was influenced by the work of the Great Lakes American Cocker Spaniel Hunting Enthusiasts (G.L.A.C.S.E.), a group "dedicated to bringing back the American Cocker Spaniel as a hunting companion."

An American cocker charges back with a ringneck. Many owners of American cocker spaniels mention that the breed excels on pheasants. Photo by Bob and Marsha Linehan

The current president of GLACSE, Vickie Dahlk, said, "Our club has over fifty members across the country. I get calls all the time from people looking for a cocker to hunt with. When I am out training or hunting and other people see me with my dogs, I get comments like, 'my uncle had a cocker that he hunted with,' or 'my grandfather always hunted with cockers.'"

Spencer acceded in his book that the American cocker spaniel makes a fine hunting companion but cautiously repeated the old saw about field bred cockers: "Since working American cockers are so few and non-working cockers so plentiful, if you hanker for one of these hardy little hustlers as a hunting buddy, you should select a breeder with consummate care."

In his book Pheasants of the Mind, Datus Proper makes a boorish remark of flushing spaniels: "Spaniels are often built right if you get the little ones, under forty pounds. Avoid show strains like the plague. They were designed for gathering dust under sofas."

However, Dahlk points out that isn't entirely the case, "The only thing that too much show breeding has done is cockers now have much more coat and are smaller than they were forty years ago. They still have natural instinct and hunting abilities."

She noted that at the American Spaniel Club Nationals cockers are put through an instinct evaluation where dogs that have never seen a bird before are tested to see how they react. Cockers trained for show, obedience and agility end up flushing and chasing birds with some even retrieving them.

"All of my cockers have been from show lines. Most have show champions as parents. The first cockers I owned in 1986, we only hunted with them," said Dahlk. "Since I began training for AKC hunt tests about six years ago, all of my dogs have reached Senior Hunter titles and I have two right now working in Masters. In our club, all the cockers are from show lines and are working in the field, and running in AKC hunt tests and ASC Working Dog tests. I don't think that there is a hereditary disadvantage."

American cockers have little qualms about getting wet during hunting season. Photo by James Card

Jeff Thomas of south-central Pennsylvania has seen a "slow but sure" increase in American cockers in the field and at AKC hunt tests. He uses his American cockers on guided hunting trips for pheasants. As a guide he holds high standards for his spaniels and has owned cockers from show and field lines.

"I know there's a lot of debate between field and show lines in which would be the best hunter. I guess my answer to this is look for the proven hunting line. Period. I believe the breeding counts a lot if you want a gun dog. I just think the desire and instincts from a proven hunting line are hard to beat in any breed. Could you overcome this? Probably. With proper training you could achieve your goal to some extent. I guess it's how much you hunt and would that dog be enjoyable to hunt over. And there will be your difference."

Bob and Marsha Linehan of San Diego hunt with their family of American cockers called Pudg'gee Ann's Field Bred American Cocker Spaniels. They've heard reoccurring comments about the classic American cockers: "When we hunt our cockers, there are lots of hunters in their seventies who say, 'Now there's a hunting dog,' referring to our cockers. Most of them hunted over cockers in the forties and fifties. They tell us stories about their cockers and seem to miss hunting over these pint-size but dynamic and smart hunting dogs."

Bob Linehan got his first cocker from a breeder uninterested in hunting. After lots of training, his dog Pudg'gee earned a Senior Hunting title and a Working Dog Excellent title. He said, "We absolutely believe that a 'generic' cocker pup can be trained to be a proper gun dog," but added, "Getting a cocker pup from field lines would make it easier to predict that the cocker has good hunting abilities. Breeding makes it easier for the person who wants a hunting cocker."

As the smallest dog of the sporting breeds, pound for pound they are the toughest gun dogs out there; canine pocket rockets that weasel under swales of matted swamp grass after a rooster pheasant; leap over deadfall thrice their size and able to haul a Canada goose out of black water slough. They do all of this with an immense eagerness to hunt with its master. Cockers especially excel in close quartering in brushy cover, often checking back to the hunter. They will hunt for you, but would rather hunt with you. "You can't beat a cocker's loyalty. And they have the heart of a lion," said Thomas.

The breed does have two main drawbacks. One is the coat which will vacuum up burrs if left HSO. But with regular maintenance they can be shorn as short as a pointer's coat. The second is cold weather water retrieves. Thomas said," They can't sit in a duck blind when it gets really cold. Their body mass can't take it." Also, they will struggle against strong river currents. His solution is to use them for waterfowl in early season and hunt potholes and small lakes.

One myth is that American cockers are unable to cover as much terrain as larger breeds. "But they don't have to because they are more thorough on the ground they cover," said Thomas. "The end result is mostly same numbers of birds." He cited timed bird dog competitions open to all flushing and pointing breeds where his cockers have taken first place five times.

Destined for work in the wetlands? A cocker pup comes home after exploring a nearby swamp. Photo by James Card

In their book, Urban Gun Dogs, authors Anthony Z. Roettger and Benjamin H. Schleider III, make a strong case for small-sized spaniels as the hunting breeds of choice for the modern-day hunter that is cramped for training grounds and living space. They write, "As a rule of thumb for the urban resident, the smaller the dog is, the better. Small dogs require less space in the home and especially in the car. Spaniels and retrievers are well sized for urban hunters."

Their book is groundbreaking in the sense that they are the first outdoor writers to acknowledge that most gun dog owner-trainers do not live on a sprawling fantasy ranch with a stocked aviary of quail and pheasants to conduct daily field training regimens that require open space, gunfire and live birds.

Overpopulation, suburban sprawl, and stricter pet laws make it tough on today's gun dog trainers. American cockers can be trained in the home and a small backyard, and later on the way to the field, they will fit into your subcompact econo-car without any trouble. At the city park with their friendly comportment, they are less intimidating to strangers than a slobbering 82-pound Chesapeake Bay retriever, and that means less headaches for a dog owner living in an urban area with dog-phobic freaks.

"Their small body size makes them great an inside house dog. Having a cocker is the best of all worlds. When the cocker is out in the field, they are all business and are interested in hunting only," said Marsha Linehan. "Then after a long (or short) day of hunting, take your cocker home and you will have a loving companion who is happy to be on your lap, getting love."

Good Luck!

Ken

[ReelTimes]

Labs..Good luck with the American Cocker. I knew there were still some field lines around. I'm glad to see someone has one. I would enjoy seeing him if you ever decide to bring him to one of the spaniel hunt tests. I have had labs and english cockers both. While I never ran retriever hunt tests, I did run some retriever field trials in the 80s for several years. As you know with trialing, the time commitment to be competitive is huge. As my kids became more involved with sports, I quickly found that I did not have the time to be competitive in the higher stakes or the money to put them with a pro. I have always had very well bred labs and I do like labs. Having said that, I actually enjoy upland hunting with my english cocker. I do like the bigger cockers and mine runs 39-42 pounds, depending upon the season. I understand everyone has personal preferences and the english cocker may not be for everyone. I do really like the way these cockers quarter at 15-25 yards and always try to make sure that they're within range. They're very intelligent and you're right, very trainable. Many of my friends have pointers (and I am not antipointer)and they're all nice dogs but I prefer hunting with the cockers for a variety of reasons. Regarding cattails, mine does quite well when rested but may not be quite as durable as my labs have been for that type of cover over several days or my friends versatile hunting dog. Where I notice it is at the end of the third or into the fourth day. My opinion is that these dogs are great for 3-4 days of hard hunting. I will usually put him up for a day if he shows signs of fatigue after 3-4 days. But for me that limitation is minor compared to all the other great aspects, and in fact some of my friends dogs sometimes need a rest too. It certainly isn't an issue for me but I don't hunt for days-on-end either. Probably the biggest aspect, though, is their personality. They're the friendliest little dogs. Best of luck with your new friend.

[Big Dave2]

Very good reading!

[ReelTimes]

Labs, I was thinking about your comments on labs and you may be right about the line breeding, although I think also a factor may be breeding programs selecting those dogs with traits required to win trials and continue to emphasize those same traits over and over. In the end you have high powered dogs with much natural ability that can handle the collar program but probably too hot for the average guy. Have you had an opportunity to work with or see any of the british bred labs from british field trial lines? As you may know, British trials are different from American trials and I am generalizing but understand they tend to be more controllable dogs.

[LABS4ME]

There is some truth to the British dogs tending to be more controllable, but many of the "British" dogs in America are only partially British and thusly can take on traits from either of the parents. While some are of full blood, and bred accordingly, many of those 50-50 lineage dogs are bred back to all American stuff... those pups are now only 25% British but are still sold as "british" pups... over time you will be back to square one. I know of 2 "full" blooded British dogs that are as 'hot' as any American bred line, I also know of another that is so incredibly 'under control' and she has had almost zero training. Many of the Brits seem to be slowly ratcheting up their dogs to compete on par with American dogs... we'll have to wait and see if they breed their dogs up to the level of the American trial dog. Seems we've done this to every breed in every sport. Dogs, Horses, even Human athletes. Think of it this way, there is no way most football, basketball or hockey players from 30-40 years ago could compete today and enjoy the level of success they attained in their sport during their time. Right or wrong this is the course that competition fosters and follows.

I bred back to a full Scotish import once and REALLY liked the pups. I bred him to my female who is very calm and tractible, and the pups were outstanding. Great looks and build, awesome coats but slower to mature than most "american" dogs (not hyper, but blossoming in hunting into their 2nd and 3rd year of hunting). In the future I will put a lot of consideration into a true British Lab... Many are still as we remember what a lab is/was suppose to be.

Back in the early 90's I went to listen to a speaker who was in charge of breedings for a seeing eye dog program. I was learning how to 'breed out' or 'in' traits in dogs. One thing that will always stick in my head is a quote I heard that evening... and it was contrary to what most American breeders practice today... "line breeding causes a slow death of any line". Yet because trialers and other breeders of 'talent' put all their energy into producing pups of high caliber, no other consideration is taken into account. Many of today's Labrador lines are line bred back generations... I am a huge proponent of outcrossing my lines. It creates Hybrid vigor and by selecting mates to compliment each other you are still dictating to an extent the outcome of the breeding. He was a bigger fan of a controlled inbreeding in lieu of a constant line breeding... (ie: father to daughter), but you would only do this once and move into an outcross on the successive litters.

There is no right or wrong answer to where we are at as a breed today. I am constantly in awe as to the level of play that they get out of dogs nowadays, they keep raising the bar, and the dogs keep clearing it. But I am slowly learning that those dogs are also becoming way out of my realm of training abilities. The Field Champion of the 50's, may not even finish a QAA or Master Hunter stake of today! I just wish the trialers would put more emphasis into what they are truely suppose to be judging... are these dogs the "BEST" of the best as field companions . Many times the judges look away at things like hard mouth, or constant fidgeting and whining on the line, or barking while running blinds or on marks etc. Many of these dogs will never hunt, not because of their 'value', but because they truley would not have the ability to do so. I've had friends who have trial dogs and they wouldn't take them duck hunting because you would drive yourself daffy doing so... but they are among the elite class of dogs running. Yet this is what the field trial is suppose to mimic and is the original purpose of the breed... waterfowl retrieving. There is no judging on the merits of upland hunting ability at a field trial... Even the hunt tests have evolved over time into quasi field trials... but that again was/is not the intent of a hunt test. It was to show that a dog can beat a set standard to attain a hunting title to show future pup owners that this pup is bred out of hunting stock and would make a great hunting prospect... but too many of the judges take it upon themselves to skirt around outside the standards to 'seperate' dogs and to shorten the field of entries to get a pre-determined (in their mind) number of dogs that qualify. I've witnessed it first hand even back in the 90's... This makes handlers move the bar of what that dog can do up higher to achieve their titles... yet the standards are still the same as they were in '88 when I ran my first hunt test! I still think this is the best place for many puppy buyers to search out their pup... from kennels that play and have played the hunt test game for many years.

I just think Joe Average needs to look further into his potential breeders and their lines before he commits to the purchase of a pup. The dog of your dreams is till out there... you just need to go look for it!

Good Luck!

Ken

[ReelTimes]

Good thoughts. I understand that one of the aspects of the british field trials that more resembles true waterfowling is that the dogs do have to sit and honor throughout the trial for long periods of time and at the same time have to be quiet without alot of movement. They're judged alot on behavior at the line but then also on the ability to retrieve and find the bird. At the same time, they need to be focused on all birds shot as they may be the next dog sent. I have seen a couple of british dogs but their lines were more show than field. They probably had acceptable traits and skills for waterfowling but overall abilities were below what I would want to have. Similar to here, there is a definite split between british field lines and show lines and I have yet to see a direct import from exclusively british field trial stock. I would like to see one.