E-85

[Nutty Fisherman]

Not sure if this is the right place or not. I noticed the gas prices are going down, and I thougt E85 was cheaper then 10%. On the way to Brainerd this morning I saw a station with 10% at $1.69 and E85 at $1.99. Is anybody else seeing this? Also does anybody know why?

[Coach1310]

Some of it has to do with the amount of subsidy that ethanol gets per gallon. Just another reason the ethanol experiment is a definite failure in my opinion.

[hydro]

Don't forget the fact that it takes 20% more E-85 by volume to go the same distance as gasoline!

[fishwater]

The E85 is made with corn from long term (seasonal) grain contracts. They are making the stuff out of 7+ dollar a bushel corn right now...

I heard that a number of the producers are suing to get the contracts voided.

[Nutty Fisherman]

That is what I was thinking but I just wanted to see what others were thinking.

A question for fishwater: When you say producers do you mean ethanol producers? I wouldn't think the farmers would want to void there 7.00 dollar corn

[BobT]

The E85 is made with corn from long term (seasonal) grain contracts. They are making the stuff out of 7+ dollar a bushel corn right now...

I heard that a number of the producers are suing to get the contracts voided.

Maybe but we must remember too that corn was only that high for a very short time. Couple months if I recall. The prices spiked in a very short time and them plummeted just as fast.

Bob

[fishwater]

When you say producers do you mean ethanol producers? I wouldn't think the farmers would want to void there 7.00 dollar corn

Yes, the story on MPR was about ethanol producers going to court to void commodity contracts. I might have misheard, I was on my way to launch my boat and I get into a mindless zone anytime I think about fishing.

[deadeye]

I won't get into the debate about if its a good thing or not but by my house here in Brooklyn Center they had regular going for 1.62 and E-85 for 1.32.

Maybe just lazy attendants?

[reddog]

The E85 is made with corn from long term (seasonal) grain contracts. They are making the stuff out of 7+ dollar a bushel corn right now...

I heard that a number of the producers are suing to get the contracts voided.

They are suing to stop Verasun (bankrupt, chapter 11) from voiding their contracts.

[hawkeye43]

Why wouldn't the plants file chapter 11 to void the $7.00 corn, when they can buy it now at $3.61. Very few people got $7.00 for their corn in the first place. Will Washington not step in and bail the plants out to???

[harvey lee]

E-85 is just not the answer. The station in town has E-85 for .10 less than unleaded. I bet they don,t move much if any.

If it cannot stand on its own without subsidies, then let it die.

[Jim Almquist]

The last I saw in Cloquet E-85 was still 30 cents more then unlead. $1.99 vs $1.69

[inspec_brad]

Our local BP station would not sell the stuff about 4 weeks ago since it was costing more than what he could sell it for. Kinda funny how when the prices of fuel in general were rising to 4 bucks a gallon, and the customers were taking it in the shorts, you didnt see stations shutting down then. Now the shoe is on the other foot. E-85 is not the answer.

[graingrower]

The cost of production of corn based ethanol happens to be about equal to the market price of petroleum when crude is less than approximately $70. When world energy markets make another run for futures contract highs, E-85 will again become a viable alternative for those with flex fuel vehichles. Remember that regular unleaded gasoline in MN is also 10% ethanol. The subsidy mentioned earlier is per gallon credit of (?)51 cents to the processor. The subsidy is part of the farm program and is under close scrutiny of the incoming democrat leaning Congress and will likely be repealed or at least lowered. The initial thought behind the subsidy was to accelerate construction of new plants and help cooperatives raise the capital needed to get infrastructure projects underway. The posters reguarding high priced corn contracts must also realize that when raw material (corn) is forward priced, the expected production (ethanol) is then sold to a blender/refinery at a price that can support the total cost of production. It would make absolutely no sense to declare bankruptcy for the sole purpose of escaping an agreement that was executed for profit. For all anyone knows, corn could rebound by next spring if things like wheather, global economy, domestic/export demand, unbudgetable input costs, influence the commodity markets. If that were to happen, this years corn crop still in the bin would be just as valuable as it was back in July. As you can guess from my screen name I have a vested interest in this industry; that being disclosed, I also believe that corn based ethanol will eventually be replaced by cellulosic sources when the technology becomes commercially available and price competitive with corn. I also believe that ethanol will never replace petroleum, but it certainly has proven that it can displace enough gasoline to effectively stabilize an energy market that otherwise would have put local gasoline prices about 46 cent higher than without ethanol. The 46 cent figure comes from a Wall Street Journal article printed earlier this year and is problably a conservative estimate when you consider the source is very ag unfriendly. Hopefully this has cleared away some questions or misconceptions that people outside of this industry may have had.

[AceintheHole]

The stuff is junk. Right noe it's 5 cents cheaper then normal gas you get 20-30% less MPG and your pork chops cost 50% more then they did a year ago.

[morpho]

i' saw e85 for 1.22 today at holiday .. 10% was 1.62

[18 inch Crappie]

The stuff is junk. Right noe it's 5 cents cheaper then normal gas you get 20-30% less MPG and your pork chops cost 50% more then they did a year ago.

You have to remember also that you are supporting a Minnesota farmer and not Bid laden or his friends.

[deadeye]

My talon runs an extra 45hp because the stuff runs cooler and allows more boost. Ya, I use a little more fuel, but I still get 25 mpg. The problem with most cars that run e-85 is that they are not set up to run it as a primary fuel. They set up the engine to adjust by having just dump fuel in and don't properly tune the motor for it. It will never work out great unless it is set up just for that fuel.

I realize there are major issues with the structure of how the e-85 is sold and made, but at least my money is going to the farmers and not to the middle east.

[croixflats]

We get a small percentage of oil from the middle east so that arguement does not fly when this government is trying to ram an inferior product down our throats. Corn ethanal should go away.

[BobT]

While we don't get much of our oil DIRECTLY from the middle east, it is a globally traded commodity and so it doesn't matter. It's all poured into one big bucket one way or another. World demand doesn't change because we choose to buy it from Canada or Venezuala instead of OPEC. Whatever crude we buy from the western hemisphere is only crude we wouldn't buy from elsewhere.

If we suddenly worked out a contract with the United Emerates to buy all our oil, those customers that now get it from there would buy it from the suppliers we vacate. We would just merely switch the buyer/seller relationships but the amount of the commodity sold overall would be unchanged.

Bob

[slipperybob]

My talon runs an extra 45hp because the stuff runs cooler and allows more boost. Ya, I use a little more fuel, but I still get 25 mpg. The problem with most cars that run e-85 is that they are not set up to run it as a primary fuel. They set up the engine to adjust by having just dump fuel in and don't properly tune the motor for it. It will never work out great unless it is set up just for that fuel.

I realize there are major issues with the structure of how the e-85 is sold and made, but at least my money is going to the farmers and not to the middle east.

How do you figure the extra HP running cooler? My understanding is that the octane level of E85 is signifcantly higher, I forget what it is, but a gasoline engine that is not tuned to use high octane will receive very little benefit from the fuel burn. Higher octane level, releases more energy in the breakdown of the HydroCarbon chains, thus require a higher temperature to ignite the combustion process. I think it also breaks down further, consequently less fuel is need to acquire the same energy level of lower octane fuel. I don't know what the best air-ratio is, but I'm thinking becuase of the ill-tuned engines, it's using more fuel, so it can burn the lower hydyrocarbons while the higher octane hydrocarbons just gets unused. (maybe it's just a conspiracy theory LOL's).

[inspec_brad]

Originally Posted By: AceintheHole

The stuff is junk. Right noe it's 5 cents cheaper then normal gas you get 20-30% less MPG and your pork chops cost 50% more then they did a year ago.

You have to remember also that you are supporting a Minnesota farmer and not Bid laden or his friends.

And also alot of farmers are taking out every fenceline, any piece of land where they can get an extra row or two of corn. Thats b.s in my opinion. Yes it is their land. I just wish more farmers would think about the critters that need those fencelines and what not.

[morpho]

Originally Posted By: deadeye

My talon runs an extra 45hp because the stuff runs cooler and allows more boost. Ya, I use a little more fuel, but I still get 25 mpg. The problem with most cars that run e-85 is that they are not set up to run it as a primary fuel. They set up the engine to adjust by having just dump fuel in and don't properly tune the motor for it. It will never work out great unless it is set up just for that fuel.

I realize there are major issues with the structure of how the e-85 is sold and made, but at least my money is going to the farmers and not to the middle east.

How do you figure the extra HP running cooler? My understanding is that the octane level of E85 is signifcantly higher, I forget what it is, but a gasoline engine that is not tuned to use high octane will receive very little benefit from the fuel burn. Higher octane level, releases more energy in the breakdown of the HydroCarbon chains, thus require a higher temperature to ignite the combustion process. I think it also breaks down further, consequently less fuel is need to acquire the same energy level of lower octane fuel. I don't know what the best air-ratio is, but I'm thinking becuase of the ill-tuned engines, it's using more fuel, so it can burn the lower hydyrocarbons while the higher octane hydrocarbons just gets unused. (maybe it's just a conspiracy theory LOL's).

The tallon is a turbocharged motor and just like methanol, ethanol burns cooler therefore you have a lower combusted side turbo temperature with means a lower intake temperature witch means a larger amount of air can enter the cylinder witch means more k.p. and a lower motor temp in general trucks that burn propane loose 60-70 deg when they switch from gas to propane.

[slipperybob]

Thank mopho,

I still find it very hard to believe, but I guess I will have to experience breaking the sound barrier to believe that breaking the sound barrier is possilbe. I'll keep that in mind.

[federline]

E85 doesn't stand on its own two feet w/o tax subsidies. It gives you 30% or less the MPG. You can't run it in winter up here, makes engines too hard to start and warm up to operating temp and attracts water like nobodys business. To top it off, right now, E85 prices vary BY THE SUPPLIER from 30 cents over 10% ethanol to 10 cents under 10% ethanol because of the corn contracts they are tied to.

What a cluster!!! Can I'z get a tax cut insteadz plz?

[deadeye]

Thanks for the explanation I don't have to give mopho! I guess i could have found a dyno sheet but its nice someone else knows whats up.

i do think that there is a better way to do the e-85 (biomass). It is just technology that isn't here 100% yet. I really don't think e-85 is going to go away, but we do need a better way to do it.

The fuel that intrigues me is diesel that is produced from algae. Once we get that tuned into a cost effectve measure, we got plenty of algae to go around here in Minnesota. It could even be produced at a wastewater treatment plant in theory. Making fuel from p00p would be wonderful. I guess I could really say I'm contributing to society for once.