Sunday Newspaper

[Pikeslayer]

You got it backwards!Your saposed to keep the kids busy!

[Hooliganz]

ya I know, I should say wife has been keeping me busy watching the kids , one not a year old yet so hard to take them with.

[Pikeslayer]

Bass n Spear What do you mean can you ice fish in a spearhole? I angle in my house every day when Im not spearing! Dont let these muskyhuggers get your line in a knot! They say were doing nothing but killing pike, But do they pay an extra seventeen bucks for a musky license,Not that I know of!!

[Pikeslayer]

10000 casts IS it legal to spear in north dakota (Im talking pike not carp)?

[Pikeslayer]

I know what your talking about,I used to have to give most my fish to the grandparents just so I could go!!

[10,000 Casts]

Pikeslayer,

Yes you can spear in ND but some lakes do have restrictions.

One thing that you have to remember is that Sucker minnows are illigal in ND so no live decoys.

John

[Pikeslayer]

What are some of the laws about spearing pike in ND?

[Dan L]

Hey Bass N Spear. You say the MDHA is always doing anything they can to help the pike population. I know they don't like slots. What are some of their ideas and efforts to produce bigger pike for Minnesota? Always like to hear what others have to say. As far as smaller pike taking over a lake I think the vast majority of Minnesota lakes have already been overrun by small pike. Good luck to ya.

[bassNspear]

You might be right that most of the lakes in Minnesota are taking over by the smaller pike population. But i do know that there are alot of lakes out there that you cant even go out and caught one pike in it. I know its alot different depending on what lake you are on. MDHA wants to be able to have all the lakes have a great population of pike it each lake. We not here to clean out every lake and not have any pike out there at all, becuaes then you will never see anyone out spearing or tip up fishing. They want the pike population to keep growing, and there making efforts to help the population all across the state.

[dstrey]

I do not believe spearers are more to blame than the anglers for the stunted pike populations. I can't remember how many times I have been out on the ice to see a person pull up a 28+ in northern on a tip up and just throw it on the ice. I don't spear but do pike fish a lot and would like to see people that spear and pike or musky fishermen working together instead of figiting. Spearing is a tradition in minnesota and it is nice to see traditions continue. Both spearing and angling can happen in a good way for a lake but not by blaming every body else. Nobody is happy about the decline of trophy fish.

[Stiff]

Yeah, I think the guys who are writing in don’t really have a problem with the angling method (spearing). They have a problem with the harvest of medium to large sized pike.- regardless of how they are harvested. If there were tip up guys posting photos of pike they had clearly kept in that upper twenty to upper thirty inch range – I think these same guys would have the same complaints.

I think they have valid points. If you want a fishery that has 40 inch pike, the best way to do that is to refrain from killing them when they are smaller than that. That said, some harvest of smaller fish only helps the 30 inch class fish grow bigger faster.

I think B420 nailed it earlier when he stated his personal range that he doesn’t harvest is 26-40 inches. I think many us would do well to follow his lead. When a pike grows into the upper 20’s, he starts to become more significant to the lake as an individual – both as a predator and as an angling target. He becomes more valuable to preserve.

I think those of us who are lucky enough to find ourselves on the water frequently really need impose size limits on ourselves, and perhaps the more you get out, the more strict you should be with yourself (???). It’s a responsible thing to do. If we fail to do it ourselves, and the common goal is more and larger pike, then we shouldn’t be surprised when the laws change to support that goal by way of protected slots.

Some of the “Spearing Crowd” is pretty vocal and enthusiastic. I think that is awesome and they are a great asset to anyone visiting here who wants to learn more about spearing. People who are willing to share their knowledge are perhaps the most valuable thing about these forums.

But some of the “Large Pike Advocates” are basically calling them hypocrites because these same guys that claim to support the “Large Pike Effort”, and advocate taking smaller pike and letting the big ones swim. Yet they admit taking mid 30 inch range pike, post photos of these fish, and offer congratulation to people who have harvested fish in this range. (I’ve done it too) But, I can see where Large Pike Advocates would point out the two things don’t match up.

No question that it’s a legal choice to take those fish – it’s just maybe not the best choice – especially when it’s done time and again.

[Dan L]

Yeah I agree. If I see a upper 20's or bigger pike come up to the fish shack in the summer I have the same reaction. I think what for. There are so many smaller pike in a lake for good eating.

[B420]

Right on the money Stiff!

[AWH]

Quote:

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You might be right that most of the lakes in Minnesota are taking over by the smaller pike population. But i do know that there are alot of lakes out there that you cant even go out and caught one pike in it. I know its alot different depending on what lake you are on. MDHA wants to be able to have all the lakes have a great population of pike it each lake. We not here to clean out every lake and not have any pike out there at all, becuaes then you will never see anyone out spearing or tip up fishing. They want the pike population to keep growing, and there making efforts to help the population all across the state.

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This strategy is great if you want to maintain what we have in the state, which is an abundance of small pike. Higher pike populations are not going to help with the quality (in terms of size) of the pike fishery. There's a definite trade off. If you want bigger pike, the trade off is a less dense population. So if the MDHA is pushing to increase pike populations, they're pushing to diminish our opportunities to chase trophy northern pike in most waters.

So I guess the question that they need to answer is: What do they want? You can't have high populations AND trophy pike.

Aaron

[10,000 Casts]

Quote:

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What are some of the laws about spearing pike in ND?

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Nothing earth shattering really except,

You have to check in with fish and game before you start the season.

You can't fish out of a spear hole, the biggest hole that you can fish out of is, I believe 10 or 12 inches.

Thats all I can think of for now

John

[bassNspear]

I understand where you are coming from on this subject. That is a great question that alot of people cant awnser. I guess the biggest thing that you have to look at, is that your never going to have it the way that you really want it. The fact of the matter is, your always going ot have the smaller pike, yet us as anglers and spearers, we have to try and set guide lines as to what we want. I would rather see monster pike any day before smaller pike. But the thing that we have to look at, is how are we going to get all the anglers and spears to look in the same directions.

I think it was the best thing that the DNR did towards spearers is when they placed the rule "only one fish over 30 inches in limit per day." For myself, im not out there to get the monster pike all the time. Smaller population is always a better way to go if your looking to get a nice meal.

With this rule, people are only allowed to take one big fish a day. Maybe they should change it to a smaller number, but yet your still going to have people out there taking pike at 40+, and still having the same problem that we have now.

The fact of the matter is this i believe, we can have all the rules that we want, and people that spear are always going to be spearing, but realize that every rule that we have out there is not going to fit everyone in the same shape or form.

[riverrat56]

One thing that no one has brought up is this;

Spearing numbers have gone down from 50,000 to 15,000 in Minnesota over X number of years, that is what I gathered from earlier in the post, now I don't have the numbers nor was I alive back when 50,000 Minnesotans tried to poke a pike, but with a 35,000 person decrease, what effect can spearing even have, 15,000 people, thats 1.5 per lake in the Land of 10,000 that we call home.

What I'm getting at is spearers can't be the only problem, the numbers of spearers went down as the pike fishing got progressivly worse? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Also there is no possible way that only the slob spearers survived the genocide that must have started with Muskies Inc.(just joking around there) So not everyone one of those 15,000 is taking every fish that loafs by.

To sum up my point, how can 1 group, as there numbers sharply drop off, have such a large impact on a reasource used by everyone?

As to why is spearing declining? Maybe people see how everyone who spears gets bashed and although they have nother against it, they don't want to open themselves up to ridicule, there is enough finger pointing going on already, why bring more on yourself from your fellow fishermen?

Yes I'm sure some unethical spears take 28-36 inch fish a day, but there are plenty of anglers taking home 8 walleyes or maybe 3 or 4 extra crappies, theres a bad apple in every bunch. Someone might have even kept a real live muskie for the wall, or (gasp) ate a limit of bass. Now the first 2 examples were over limits and illegal, shame on them, the second two were legal, shame on them also? I don't think so, were all fishermen and if it's legal we have no right to bash it.

I guess my point is that the root of the problem of the little snot rockets that invest the beautiful waters of the state does not only stem from spearfishermen, maybe you have never kept a fish before in your life, but by only catching them you also have killed some, it just happens, swallowed hooks, bleeding gills, frozen eyes. That doesn't bother me, there is no way to avoid it.

But saying that spearing has eliminated every single trophy pike in the state just isn't plausible,(maybe we should get the Mythbusters to test it?) There just isn't enough spears around anymore, and in the same time frame that fishing for pike has drastically declined, fishing pressure for them, especially through the ice has sky rocketed, anglers kill more pike than do spearers.

I don't spear, I probally never will because I don't like eating a whole lot of fish and can't clean a nothern anyhow, but I'm sick of hearing everyone bash spearing.

Everyone's in this for one reason, to have a good time, we just go about it our own ways, I really like to watch a flag pop up, some guys really like to see a fish come sneaking in only to be frustrated by it not presenting an opportunity for harvest or maybe by only sticking around long enough for a memory.

Now the fun part.....(this took me like an hour to think of)

Here is my theory, say everyone with a spearing licences is out that day, each on sees 10 fish, throws the spear at 4, hits 3, 1 shakes loose, 2 get pickeled, I count that as 3 dead fish per angler, Now say every angler is out ice fishing that day (DNR HSOforum stated 2.3 million anglers anually, I'll go with half that ice fish on said day.) Every angler has 10 bites, hooks 8, 2 spit the hook, 1 bites the hook off, 5 are landed, 1 is bleeding from the gills a bit swims off just fine, the other 4 are handled properly and released. So if we assume that 1 in every 10 of the fish that bit the line off die, and 1 in 5 that is bleeding from the gills die.

That means each angler killed .6 fish of 10 caught or 6 for every 100, which is 345,000 fish total. Of every 10 fish seen spearing, 3 are killed, or 30 for every 100 which is 45,000. So we have 390,000 dead fish, 11.5% were killed by spearers, which made up only 1.2% of the people fishing that day.

That sounds anti spearing I know, but my point that I'm trying to make, althought I lost myself in the math, is that there is more to the declining pike fishery than spearers, they are often used as the scape goat to place the blame on. After all 88.5 percent of all the pike taken in my imagionary world were lost to hook and line just by the shear numbers of hook and line anglers compared to spearers.

If you don't spear, you only need to look as far as the boat next to you or the tip up out your window, they are also impacting pike populations far more significantly than spearing.

I fish, I love to do it, but I hate it when other fishermen bash people who enjoy the same thing we do just in a bigger hole.

[Wolfpaak]

WELL SAID River Rat! I've been trying to think of that number answer/reply, myself!

Later,

Kenny

[Dan L]

Hey Riverrat. I agree that anglers have been and still are a big contributer to the way pike fishing is now. When we used to fish years ago we used to keep the bigger pike and release the small ones. I think that was very common for anglers and probably still is to a lesser degree. My big complaint with the MDHA is their unwillingness to promote regs to reverse the pike problem. As I have said before the MDHA seems to fight most efforts to improve pike populations. I have fished some lakes with the slots and they do seem to work. To say we are stuck with a stunted pike problem as in an earlier post might not be true, but it would take retrctions from anglers and spearfishermen to bring back big pike.

[Cowgirladdict]

Riverrat, i think your numbers are way off, not all people ice fishing are fishing for pike, most are targeting other species, spearers on the other hand are targeting one species, also i would say it is a lot smaller then half the 2.3 million that even ice fish, i dont have any numbers but my guess is less then a quarter of that 2.3 million, well i guess your numbers are a guess too, so im right in line there, and the last but most important thing is while fishing for Pike there is a thing called Catch and Release, and yes i agree not all make it after being caught, but there still isnt a term for Spear and Release, even tho some try it and we dont find that out till the ice goes off the lakes and they wash up on the shoreline

[bassNspear]

Im sorry, but there is no way shape or form that a spear fisherman can use the catch and release form. And if they do, it will die from the puncher of the spear.

[riverrat56]

Like stated it was hypothetical, and my point was made, spearers can't compete with fishermen in terms of fish harvested.

I agree that it seems the MDHA holds up some slots and the like, but there may be 2 main reasons for this, once you poke a fish you can't measure it and find out its to short, and since you can't realease a speared fish a limit of 1 is kind of restrictive. But they could work to comprimise, they are so well organized that even there low numbers can get things done though.

Ok to heck with it I'm done being civil about it, spearing is not the number 1 cause of pike problems in the state, I'm not asking you, I'm telling you.

[AWH]

Spearing is not the number 1 cause of pike problems in the state? Absolutely agreed. However, IF the MDHA is upholding regulations that would improve our pike fisheries, they are having a much bigger impact than just the aspect of spearing itself. I think this (if accurate) bothers me more than anything. If we don't regulate our pike fisheries to improve the average size and eliminate the huge hammer handle populations that we see, there are two major problems. First, and most obvious, is that it does nothing for improving the average size of pike in the unregulated waters. I have never heard anyone say, "I like catching nothing but hammer handles. I'm glad this lake doesn't have bigger pike." So why do we fight regulations that would aid in improving this?

Secondly, by not implementing slots or other regulations that could improve our pike fisheries, this has an adverse effect on the entire fishery as a whole. Lakes that are over run with hammer handles are lakes that are out of balance. These are lakes that could see the entire balance of the fishery improve if we would help it along by better managing our pike fisheries.

Lake specific management with slots or whatever is needed have proven to be effective. Let's not fight regulations that would improve our fisheries because I throw a spear once in awhile.

Aaron

[Early Riser]

My understanding is that the major reason the statewide 26"-40" slot failed was becasue the majority of people did not want it, based on the DNR angler surveys.

The best solution may be the lake by lake restrictions that seem to be taking hold on a number of waters that are either out of balance or have the potential of being overharvsted.

[MJBo]

Quote:

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Ok to heck with it I'm done being civil about it, spearing is not the number 1 cause of pike problems in the state, I'm not asking you, I'm telling you.

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You're point is completely irrelevant. No one ever stated spearers are the #1 problem for pike fisheries. They may be but no one has said it here. Fat drunken walleye fisherman who take 400 walleyes out of mille lacs are not the #1 problem for walleye fisheries in the state of minnesota. Does that mean that what they are doing is OK (questions of legality aside). No. It doesn't because they are having a DISPROPORTIONAL NEGATIVE IMPACT on the fishery. Just like spearers do.

For future referance statements like "I'm not asking you I'm telling you" don't help get you're point across more effectively, but its a pretty good way to tick people off and make them a good deal less receptive to your arguments.