Water filter on main water supply

[PropsterII]

I've owned my house since 1998 (built in 1985) and in those 18 years I've had to replace the well pump twice, second time being this last year.  When I asked the guy who repaired it (Kimmes Bauer) why they go out and does that seem too often, he said that he thinks the water filter (standard 10") on the line after it first enters the house is the culprit - in terms of pressure and kicking the pump on and off more than usual. He mentioned placing the filter after the pressure tank.  Pretty sure I don't want my bad water (lots of particles and crud) to flow unrestricted into my pressure tank do I?  Will going to a less constrictive filter (say 20 microns vs 5) help, or what do you guys recommend?  I've had the well shock treated with chlorine in the past, and of course he had to treat it with chlorine this time, but it's not bacteria that is the problem, it is actual particles.  Beyond the pressure tank I then have an Iron Curtain iron filter and Kinetico softener, then the water heater.  Thanks fellas.

[delcecchi]

I don't get how the filter would make the pump kick on and off, but by restrictions flow it makes the pump work longer and harder.   Also it is pumping particles, which are abrasive.

If the coarser filter does the job, go for it.  Moving the filter helps the pump, but reduces pressure in the house.  You can always flush the pressure tank, if that becomes a problem from moving the filter.

Is there a flow/pressure drop spec on the filter?

[PropsterII]

I may have misheard him re: the pump kicking on/off.  It's possible he just stated "makes the pump work harder" and therefore shortens life? I'd hate to just try a coarser filter in hopes that it works, because in 8 years I'll have to replace the pump again if it doesn't. I don't see a spec for flow/pressure, it's just one of those standard blue cannisters with the 10" would cartridge.

[leechlake]

Prosper- sounds like our set up at the cabin.  I believe there is a "bypass" on the filter.  The reason I know this is I accidentally had mine on bypass for at least a year and the plumber saw it when he came out for something.  If so you could bypass the filter altogether and see if that changes anything with the tank or pump.  

On another note we've had the same problem and even though the plumber is awesome they are making an educated guess as to why.  Is it the tank, the pump, the filter, some other thing, who knows.  You almost need the guy to test each hypothesis to see if it fixes the situation and when you do let me know.  I'm glad I don't live there so it doesn't bother me as much.

[delcecchi]

I looked on the Pentair filter page and the pressure drop for a 10 inch cartridge is minimal (.2psi) at 5gpm.  Could the filters need to be changed more often?  I presume they plug up at some point, once they have removed a certain amount of sediment. 

I looked at the spec sheets for several kinds of cartridges and then never listed the capacity of how much sediment that they could take.  

[PropsterII]

Leech, if I by pass I will most certainly be running a bunch of sediment into the pressure tank.  Now I don't know for a fact that's bad by I assume it is.  Del, thanks for the research.  maybe that is what he was saying is that being clogged or impeding flow makes the pump work too hard and causes it to give out early.  I'm all ears for any other thoughts, but for now I will simply continue to change the cartridges out more often.

[Tom7227]

Just a guess but maybe the filter constricts the water flow and allows for a build up of pressure on the line from the pump to the filter.  That may make the pump cycle off once the limit switch is tripped.  It would kick back on after a second or so.  Have you watched and listened for a while when water is being used to see if you can tell if the pump is cycling on and off a lot?

If the filter is put upstream of the pressure tank things would be smoothed out.  I did the google with this search and came up with a lot of hits.  installing a whole house water filter with a well     

Not sure many apply to a system with  a well but you can sort it out.

 

Edited January 19, 2016 by Tom7227

[delcecchi]

Personally, without looking at the exact situation, I would hypothesize that pumping all that abrasive sediment isn't doing the pump any good and the pump is just wearing out.  Filter shmilter it makes no difference.   

Just a guess on my part.  If you look at the failed pump you might be able to tell.   Are the impellers all eroded away?  Or are the wires and motor cooked? 

[icefisherman]

Not to hijack your thread but does your iron curtain work good? What kind is it?  I have well water too and I have a LOT of iron in it, but I dont seem to have alot of sediment in my water. I have a kineteco water softner too but no filters at all.

. 

[PropsterII]

Tom, the filter is already placed upstream of the pressure tank. Del, you're either on to something or on something.  I think my next best course of action is to have a more detailed conversation with Kimmes Bauer.  They install and repair enough of these that they should have a better idea what causes what, and we'll see if the repair guy knew what he was talking about or not.  Ice - not sure the model but I believe it is called Iron Curtain, o that's pretty specific.  Had the Kinetico guys put it in at same time as the Kinetico softener.  Works very well.  Of course after 13 years of not having an iron filter (from when house was built to when I bought it) all the toilets and stuff had done their share of rusting.  Got them cleaned up and any residual is pretty minor now,

Edited January 20, 2016 by PropsterII

[Cheers]

In your original post, I read it as the filter is before the pressure tank . Your last post says it is after the pressure tank !  If it is actually after the pressure tank, then it would not come into play in regards  to how hard the pump needs to run .I would look at the pump first . Is it stainless ? How about all the fittings ? . they should be stainless or brass also , never  any iron or galvanized

[PropsterII]

Cheers - I believe I have been consistent. The filter is before the pressure tank. Doesn't upstream mean further back up the system against the flow? If not, if you call that downstream for some reason, then I guess I did, but either way the line comes in, goes through the filter, and then into the pressure tank. 

[Tom7227]

9 hours ago, PropsterII said:

Cheers - I believe I have been consistent. The filter is before the pressure tank. Doesn't upstream mean further back up the system against the flow? If not, if you call that downstream for some reason, then I guess I did, but either way the line comes in, goes through the filter, and then into the pressure tank. 

Well I go back to my post and point to this as a possible culprit.  Sorry if my post was confusing but I think the filter should come after the surge tank.

[Surface Tension]

If the filter isn't getting replaced often enough you'll burn out the pump and your plumber thinks the same.
  So question is how often are you replacing the filter?Do you monitor the cut in and  cut out pressure, 

How long does it take for the pump to bring the pressure back up in the tank after the water is turned off. 

If I had your setup I'd put a pressure gauge before the filter.  Ideally the pressure there should be the same after tank.   What is in the sediment?   Well depth and pump depth?

 

 If you place the filter after the pressure tank you will know when its time to replace the filter because your pressure will drop.  As of now your pump is working overtime to push water through a filter an continues to pump till it builds up the pressure in the tank.   I would rather replace a pressure tank then pull a pump out of a well.  

What you have is probably the cheapest and easiest way.    Check out  Sediment Backwash Filters.

 

[PropsterII]

Lots to digest there Frank.  I'll figure out best way to go.  For now, will using a leass restrictive filter and changing it more often reduce the wear on the pump?

[delcecchi]

1 hour ago, PropsterII said:

Lots to digest there Frank.  I'll figure out best way to go.  For now, will using a leass restrictive filter and changing it more often reduce the wear on the pump?

Looking at the specs, even pretty good filters don't cause much backpressure when new.

Edited January 22, 2016 by delcecchi

[Cheers]

I put in a sand filter that automatically back flushes its self every week . It made a huge difference in my lake water and is 0 maintenance . It wont purify the water but it takes all the big stuff out,  if I recall it was a 3 micron but not sure !

[Surface Tension]

What Cheers has is what I was referring to.   Yes that was a lot to digest and sort of thrown out there.

The particles wearing out the pump I wouldn't worry about and there is nothing you could do about that anyway.  

It is the restriction before between filter and pump.  I guess the biggest would be to know if the pump is bringing the tank up to pressure in a reasonable amount of time.   Next is the pressure between the pump and filter. Lets say you cutoff is 50 lbs.  That is 50 lbs after the filter, you could be much higher then that before the filter if it is dirty.

[delcecchi]

That brings up a question..  when the filter is changed, how does one tell if it is clogged/dirty and wasn't changed soon enough?  Can you tell by appearance? 

[bobberineyes]

I'm not so sure the filter has anything to do with it. How was the pump working when it burns up, running non stop?  

Those pumps usually don't just give up, we have a shallow well at the cabin and a deep well here at the house. Sediment finds little port holes and all and builds over the years,  especially at the pressure switch and guage. Both pumps and tanks I have have zero filters, that being said I wouldn't worry what goes thru the tank, the bladder is not going to puncture. 

Wells are all different,  by the sounds of it you need a filter with the iron or rust content.  If it were me, I would work the snot out that pump and watch the gauge and monitor what it's doing, if it's on  for long periods of time could be some build up at the tee hindering the switch for doing its job.

When was the last time the tank was serviced?   (Air added)  let's see some pics if you don't mind...

 

[PropsterII]

I'll try to get pics up this week, but basically here is the setup. Line comes in from outside (well), then goes thru the filter we are discussing, with a shut off valve on either side of the filter. It then goes through 2-3' of line to the pressure tank, and there is a gauge here. It then goes to the iron filter, then the softener, then the water heater, and to the rest of the house. Frank if you can tell me what I should be looking for or timing when I turn the water on and then turn it off - are you looking for how long the pump continues to run after I turn the water off? How long should I run the water and what source is best, just a faucet okay?

The pressure tank is fairly new, replaced spring 2015. 

Edited January 25, 2016 by PropsterII

[delcecchi]

 

when the water pressure in the tank/in the house drops to some set value, like 20 or 30 psi, the pressure switch turns on the pump.  The pump pumps water into the system until the pressure reaches some higher value like 40 or 50 psi, and then the pressure switch turns off the pump. 

Maybe there is some other problem.  Note how long it takes the pump to go from low pressure to high pressure in the system.  It should take a minute or two.  If for some reason the tank were waterlogged it would come on basically every time you turn on a faucet or flush.  You might also run water in the sink and see how long it runs until the pump turns on.  Compare the fill time with a new filter and then every few weeks.  If you can try with no cartridge in the filter that might be interesting also. 

If, as you approach changing time, the fill time gets longer and longer, filter capacity or change interval is inadequate.  If pump is starting and stopping all the time, there might be some other problem.  I am told starting and stopping is hard on pumps. 

 

[Surface Tension]

Pretty much what Del said.  You'll hear the switch click when the pump cycles on and off.   Your tank has a bladder with air in it. What the pump is doing is filling the tank and compressing the air inside the tank.

Turn a faucet on and run water till the pump kicks in. Turn faucet off.  The pump should bring the tank back up to pressure within a minute or two.   Any longer then that would have me looking at why. Restriction at the filter is my hunch.    A pressure gauge before and after the filter would tell you whats going on but with that much sediment the prefilter gauge will probably plug.    For instance if the cutout is set at 50 psi then ideally the pressure before the filter wouldn't go over 50 psi.  If it is higher you have restriction at the filter.   The pump will work longer to get the pressure up in the tank.  Depending on how much restriction the pump might never shut off. 

 As mentioned there are other things to lookout for that can compound this. Together when everything is in tune the system works without any quirks.  Bladder inside tank is water logged,  here your not compressing air and the pump will cycle to often.    Air bladder pressure set to high. That should be a couple psi below the cut out pressure.   Plugged line to pressure switch by corrosion or sediment. Usually that would result in the pump not turning on.  These things your plumber would have set for you.

 

 

 If the tank is waterlogged the pump will run in short cycles,  again listen for the click at the switch.