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Paradice

Your Zone, Observations, & Mgmt Opinion

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Party hunting (which actually boils down to cross tagging) is a form of deer hunting that makes deer season a tradition for many Minnesotans and non residents, and with the ability for basically anyone with $31 to get a tag, I can see how party hunting is so popular. BUT, IMO, party hunting (but really cross tagging) is a very flawed system. Party hunting is usually synonymous with deer drives, pushing bush, etc, and in my experiences of doing deer drives, 95% of the deer that get shot, get shot on the run. Shooting at a running deer drastically increases the chance of wounding the animal or the increased risk of an accident with another member of the party. Oh, and lets not forget to mention the short amount of time a hunter has to decipher what kind of deer they are shooting at, buck, doe or fawn and after the trigger is pulled all bets are off, and trust me, no one is going to burn a tag on a fawn (referring to all the fawns that get shot on drives and don't get tagged or registered).

If Uncle Bob shoots a 1.5 year old buck opening morning, good for him; but Uncle Bob is now filled his tag and no longer licensed, therefore no longer legally a member of said "party" (Unless Uncle Bob uses Aunt Bob's license to tag his 1.5 year old buck he harvested opening morning, even though Aunt Bob hasn't held a firearm in 34 years, and wasn't afield the same time Uncle Bob harvested his deer, therefore Aunt Bob wasn't a legal member of the party................buuuuuuuut we won't talk about that).

 

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I am trying to find the spot in the regs that says you have to sit in camp after filling your tag. Bring a camera with or just sit in the woods and enjoy nature, read a book in the stand. Plenty of options that don't involve needing to fill all tags. 

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Phone rings back at the hunting shack and a hunter answers, "hey I just shot another deer, come and meet me by the Swamp Stand and tag this thing."  Hunter, "awesome, was it that spike you saw yesterday?  I will be right there."

Yep, it's illegal/poaching whatever your term.  If there wasn't cross tagging it wouldn't happen as often as it does now, guaranteed.

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 It always amazes me why so many Minnesotans are resistant to anything that would make their deer hunting better for either numbers of deer or numbers of older bucks. 

I have to agree with smsmith on this one.  I encounter this too often.  It is refreshing to read the feedback from lots of posts on this thread that there are others out there taking steps to let some live.  Culture doesn't change quickly, but one by one, it can. 

Edited by Paradice
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Someone out for stroll on their own land is hunter harassment?  Okay :crazy:  I grew up hunting the old man's land and now own my own.  Our land, our rules.

So you're anti deer drive, but pro party hunting/crosstagging?  That accurate?

you never specified it was private property. I also said I dont like deer drives. Others can do it don't care.  And no your far from accurate.

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Why?

If I were to say that every licensed deer hunter in Minnesota. regardless of what part of the state they are in, should be allowed to shoot twenty deer per person because deer are a nuisance, that would be my opinion. 

If I were to say that no person in Minnesota should be allowed to shoot any deer ever, regardless of circumstances, because it is immoral, that would be my opinion.

Do you believe both of the opinions, if I actually held them (I don't), are equally valid?

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Yes, both are equally valid....because they're opinions.  Opinions are neither right or wrong, they simply "are".  While I may or may not agree with yours, that doesn't make me right and you wrong (or vice versa)...it simply means we either have the same or different opinions.

 

If you want to talk about facts, then opinions don't matter...even if those opinions agree or disagree with the facts.

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why is 

Yes, both are equally valid....because they're opinions.  Opinions are neither right or wrong, they simply "are".  While I may or may not agree with yours, that doesn't make me right and you wrong (or vice versa)...it simply means we either have the same or different opinions.

 

If you want to talk about facts, then opinions don't matter...even if those opinions agree or disagree with the fac

 

I do not think you understand what "valid" means.

An opinion, unsupported by any evidence to support it, is by definition not valid. In that sense neither of my hypothetical opinions quoted above are valid.

The problem is when such an opinion is forced on others...which brings us back to my original post on this thread.

Read my earlier posts here and report back.

 

 

 

 

 

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an opinion can be based on feelings or the perception of whatever the "evidence" is.  This is turning into some debate on logic or reasoning but in my opinion someone's opinion even if somehow it can be proven as wrong is still the person's opinion.

It's 1135pm, my opinion is that it's light outside right now.  You can prove me wrong and it's still my opinion that it's light outside.

now back to killing deer the "right" or "wrong" way.

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I do not think you understand what "valid" means.

An opinion, unsupported by any evidence to support it, is by definition not valid. In that sense neither of my hypothetical opinions quoted above are valid.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ah, I see.  So in your opinion, Creationists are supporting an invalid opinion.  Got it

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Phone rings back at the hunting shack and a hunter answers, "hey I just shot another deer, come and meet me by the Swamp Stand and tag this thing."  Hunter, "awesome, was it that spike you saw yesterday?  I will be right there."

Yep, it's illegal/poaching whatever your term.  If there wasn't cross tagging it wouldn't happen as often as it does now, guaranteed.

Unfortunately, I believe you are right.  I remember back in the late 80's or around 1990.  You were finally allowed to shoot 2 bucks in the U.P. of MI.  Guess what happened.  The number of women hunting dropped drastically.  HMMMMMMM!  I wonder why????

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Since the statute of limitations is over and my mother has been gone for quite a while I will tell you that I have a picture of her in a blaze orange sweatshirt holding up a buck's head in the back of the truck.  She had never bought a license before but they moved from the cities to the cabin up north and learned that the wives bought licenses so they could attempt to draw a doe tag  (I'm not ripping northern Minnesota, it could have been that they moved anywhere where the culture said that this was the norm).  She didn't draw so one of the neighbors shot a buck and gave her a call so he didn't use his doe tag.   I'm guessing this was 20 plus years ago and my mom was or had been an absolute stickler about following rules/laws.  If she succumbed to this practice I'm pretty sure 90% plus of people would too, frankly since she didn't hunt she probably didn't even know the rules and that it was illegal.  Someone told her she "could" do it so she did.

My point is that party hunting allowed this to happen easier.

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Jeezus H, I didn't know party hunting was so evil. Or rather, I didn't know every hunter in MN was so greedy and all their hunting partners and relatives are so feeble or such easy pushovers. Party hunting allows you to cross-tag, it doesn't require you too.  If you don't want anyone else to fill your tag, make that clear well before you enter the woods. At that point, if someone in your group shoots a second deer and wants you to tag it, that's their problem, not yours. On the other hand, if your party works as a team to hunt and you're willing to allow someone else to fill your tag if they get the opportunity, so be it.

Last year the MN DNR sold about 480,000 firearms licenses, but if you'd listened to all the scenarios thrown around here, it sounds like we only have about 200,000 people that actually hunt and they all have 2 or 3 tags in their pocket they bought for relatives.

 

 

 

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Getanet,  I agree with many of your points just so you know and I don't think this tradition will change which makes it worthless to talk about except for just having a hypothetical and entertaining conversation here on HSO.  Your example about license numbers makes me wonder what the real numbers are which we will never know.  My mom example was just one of the things that happens, up above I posted the telephone call of the guy not even out in the woods, even before then I posted the "duplicate" tag trick.  

In reality, most of us enjoy the hunt and all things that go with it.   Sitting at a computer with a cup of coffee in the am and spouting off about this topic may be today's version of the fellas meeting at the coffee shop and throwing dice for who's going to pay for the coffee that day and talk'ing about daily life  :)

Edited by leechlake

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Yeah, I know Leechlake. I just think a lot of this type of stuff gets overblown and the majority of hunters are law abiding and truly care about the resource. Also, while everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions, we need to be careful at what point you draw the line from simply having an opinion on an issue to actively pushing for legislation that impacts how others participate in the sport.

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In reality, most of us enjoy the hunt and all things that go with it.   Sitting at a computer with a cup of coffee in the am and spouting off about this topic may be today's version of the fellas meeting at the coffee shop and throwing dice for who's going to pay for the coffee that day and talk'ing about daily life  :)

Right on leechlake. Heck if we all agreed on everything, life would be boring. But then again, Congress would get more done.:)

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Yeah, I know Leechlake. I just think a lot of this type of stuff gets overblown and the majority of hunters are law abiding and truly care about the resource. Also, while everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions, we need to be careful at what point you draw the line from simply having an opinion on an issue to actively pushing for legislation that impacts how others participate in the sport.

Are you saying that as fish and game populations change, we should never pursue changes like possession / bag limit reductions, slot limits, season structures, etc. just because they are not popular??? I would have to respectfully disagree with that.

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I've always been torn on party hunting.  I fully understand why people support it and to be honest we talk about it and would do it in our group if needed.  The Friday night before opener we sit down with whoever is hunting and talk about how we'd handle cross tagging if the situation arrived.  Usually its something along the lines of - Saturday each man owns his own tag and it can't be filled by another. Then depending on the length of the trip we figure out when we'd allow someone else to punch our tags and what sort of deer it would have to be.  But its all agreed to ahead of time so there are no questions.  So far the only time we've cross tagged in the last 5 years is on Sunday night of opener a few years back.  I was hunting with 2 friends.  1 friend shot a nice deer Sunday evening but had planned to hunt for 2 more days.  The 3rd friend had to head home that night so his season was over so he offered up his tag since he wasn't going to use it. Me and my buddy hunted the remaining 2 days but never filled another tag so in reality it wouldn't have mattered either way.

Even though I understand it it and would party hunt it does still annoy me how some people use and abuse the system.  I was talking with my hunting buddy and he was telling me of a bow hunting trip he took with some friends from work.  The night before they started hunting my buddy asked the group their thoughts on cross tagging to set up the plan like we usually do.  The organizer of the trip said don't worry about it.  Shoot whatever you want, I've got a pocket full of tags we can use.  The organizer was a die hard hunter and spends every available second in the woods and arms himself with the tags belonging to his entire family who are back home.  Its that abuse that bugs me.  I don't get why some guys just can't play by the rules.  Now outlawing party hunting probably won't stop that guy since he's already breaking the law, no reason to expect him to stop just by adding another law.

 

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Well, I guess I will chime in. 

I am pro-party hunting.  We have cross-tagged since I started hunting.  With that being said, I am probably the only one in our group that benifits from it, not really nessessary in our group as we have never "tagged" out.  The reason I benifit is because I am the only hunter that hunts other seasons (wife finally bow hunted again this year however).  So my father (who actually hunts) will tag the first deer I shoot each rifle season, so that I can continue to hunt, as he usually only hunts the first 3 days.  We all split the deer between us (4 ways) and any deer I shoot with bow is also shared if they want meat.

Never, do we carry someone's tag that is not hunting that day.  We do not buy licenses for non-hunting wifes, and do not use youth tags (we will use our tags on any buck killed by a youth, so they can continue to hunt and have options open).

As with most thing today, I have a difficult time supporting new laws that criminalize ordinary law-abiding individuals.  Banning cross-tagging will only stop those whom all ready do it in a legal manner, the others will just continue to do it.  unless the CO is there at the scene, it near impossible to truly know who shot the deer once it is hanging.

I will support most any hunter that enjoys Thier sport in a respectful,  and law-abiding manner.  We can have differences, but must stick together as a group.

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Cross tagging is illegal in SD, but do not think for a second it does not happen. 

The tag is the license so once you shoot your deer, you no longer have a license. But, there is an awful lot of "I cant hunt any more this season, here is my tag".

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Are you saying that as fish and game populations change, we should never pursue changes like possession / bag limit reductions, slot limits, season structures, etc. just because they are not popular??? I would have to respectfully disagree with that.

No, I'm not saying we should never pursue changes. I am saying we need to be careful about what changes we pursue. Just because others participate in a sport in a different way, even in a way you don't understand or wouldn't enjoy, doesn't mean you're right and they're wrong (not "you" as in you specifically Satchmo). I also think there are plenty of game and fish laws that had good intentions, but negative consequences.

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Yeah, sorry for kind of hijacking this thread.  I was the guilty one who said I wouldn't mind seeing it go bye, bye.  And then it became a party hunting discussion.  I didn't mean for that to happen!  Honest!:blush:

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Zone 246....roughly 60-70 deer sightings, but quite honestly it's the same 12-14 does we have been laying off of for a few years. Very few fawns due to our high predator numbers. Deer numbers are coming back slowly, but are nowhere near where they could be for the carrying capacity of this area. I think another mild winter and one more year of lottery permits would help stabilize the numbers, IF they don't go crazy with antlerless permits or go back to HC or Managed Area status yet. Some areas west of us seem to be recovering faster.

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Satchmo you spoke the truth but I bet the bashing of the truth is on the way. Exactly what tons of guys do around my permit area 240 or I should say hope to do. It isn't like the CO isn't aware also. Bow got him, rifle got him got him then somehow that same stand has the same guy muzzleloading and likely with a rifle in our area and when confronted tried it once it was all in the name of party hunting. It's not like I can check their license or deer stand or whatever, their baitpile. So there is no easy answer and lots of these guys are younger guys or not with horn porn priority # 1 hence the bow hunting, rifle,muzzy. Saving my tag is priority # 2 and 3. The theory is once you get your first buck down you either have someone lined up to tag it, you have a kid or spouse tag it if they went that route or you just 4 wheeler it home in the dark and never tag it, debone the meat, freeze it up for later processing. I think a big issue to is the CO's and my wish would be we have CO's that specifically are fish CO's and CO's that are hunting/trapping CO's and that they can cross over and assist either way. They have wetlands to investigate and more so they are stretched so thin to really dive into putting in any sort of time to catch some of these kinds of people, they catch the dummies mostly or anyone who has to drive to where they hunt, or by tip and I called in a blatant violation 2 years ago and they still couldn't fine this clown, they can't catch the people that walk out the back door to where they hunt and they never leave their soil. Now, some permit areas are way way worse for this kind of behavior and 240 is one of them mainly because OTC is and always will be featured as a top county in the state for trophy bucks, our papers always have giants shown and the big buck contests held by local newspapers or bars and grills around here have really fueled this over the years, yes I got a buck but now I'm hunting for the giant, well or another nice buck anyway. Outdoor news a few years ago featured our county again in saying most of the bucks that scored over 200".........most were taken in Ottertail Grabow said from 2012. The Hillview Management land by Sebeka also is making guys not really want to use their buck tag because tomorrow the buck of a lifetime might walk by. 240 is loaded with headmounts and every house has em and those trophies that everyone wants, this horn craziness has no boundaries, upstanding people are cheating as well as guys you'd expect to cheat, in the end it's really making deer hunting less enjoyable among other things like trespassers and such and I'm too old to sell off and try to start over someplace, might be just as bad if not worse there so if we're not choosing our weapon type to hunt deer with it'll never end, the last 10 years or so is when it really came unglued and another factor is switching from zone 4 to zone 2, now guys have more days out there so of course you don't want to sit there tagless, party members leave their unused tags for the landowner/taxpayer to decide what to do with them, in zone 4 people tagged their deer always as there was nothing to save it for, there was no muzzy, seasons were 2 days or 4: rifle and bow hunting wasn't as big then as it is now in my location, there's no grouse ducks or pheasants to hunt, geese every field has hunters permission is impossible to get so bow hunt why not, but save your rifle tag at all costs if that means running that deer for home at 3AM on a four wheeler you do it. Then you get that fresh start all over again the next day and you can still rifle, muzzy, then bow hunt again like you never had success. So when I hear deer management it's like whatever, if we can't manage all this cheating I'm not sure it matters what the DNR decides to do, these same people will be at it again and again and again and teaching their children how you skirt the law(s). Pretty sad but true. I pray your areas are not like this, honestly I wish I knew nothing of these practices, I don't search for it, just after the fact some guys like to brag a little too much.    

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