Guests - If You want access to member only forums on HSO. You will gain access only when you sign-in or Sign-Up on HotSpotOutdoors.

It's easy - LOOK UPPER right menu.

Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Tom7227

Insulation in basement

18 posts in this topic

I'm helping my brother build out his basement. A big issue is what design/products should we use for insulation.

Two options are on the list - about R12 or so spray foam or closed cell polywhateverthepinkstuffis.

It is 105 feet of 8 foot block walls with no real moisture problems to date. The area is going to be two bedrooms, a bathroom and a rec room with a fireplace.

So far the only thing I have learned is an opinion from a guy who said keep the R to around 12 or so because if you go higher the frost will get too close and could screw up the blocks.

If you foam to you stud out, install wiring and then foam, put the studs out 1/2 or 3/4 from the block, what? If you used the pink polywhatever would you attach it directly to the wall and then fur strips? Someone mentioned using foil faced - why? Do you need a moisture barrier with these products? Why?

We want to comply with any codes so if there's something special on this please let me know about that as well.

As always, thanks for any input.

Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll be interested to here the replys as I am thinking of redoing my basement as well. Right now its got the standard old knotty pine boards on the walls with no insulation behind it. I want to tear that out and drywall so I'm interested to know what I should use to insulate behind it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I am doing something similar with the spray foam job, I just did a bunch of research on it. Please keep in mind I talked with the local building officials, so this may not fly with you local inspectors. I found all inspectors are learning the foam products and may give contradictory information.

The open cell spray foams can be considered a vapor barrier between 1-1/2 and 2" thickness. This allows you to use standard electrical boxes instead of the vapor proof ones ($1 compared to $4-8). This also seals ALL air flow from the block with a much better seal then poly could ever do. Closed cell can also provide a water barrier, but costs a lot more for materials. Closed also can hold moisture which could cause problems if you cannot see water from a problem (think roofs) I would run this past your contractor for clarity on the specific situation you have.

I was also told the "R" values of insulation cannot compare batt and spray foam because of the seal spray gives you. You only need 3" of spray to equal a 2x6 stud wall construction of R-19.

If I were you, I would install 2x4 (green if touching) tight to the block walls, spray in 2-3" of insulation, and be done with it.

Talk with the local insulation contractors and make up your own mind on Open cell/Closed cell foams. They can give project specific information when I can only guess about the situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could you give some cost numbers for the various options so I can begin to get an idea what this may cost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Open cell spray foam DOES NOT give you any sort of vapor barrier. If you use open cell you must use a vapor barrier in conjunction with it. Plastic sheeting or a vapor retardant primer applied either directly to the foam or on the drywall would suffice. Closed cell foam will give you a vapor barrier. Closed cell foam is about an r-7 per inch while open cell is slightly less. You could use the foam that comes in sheets against the block and seal all the seams and along the floor with caulk and then build your walls on the inside of that. The latter would probably be the cheapest. If we do it that we usually use foil faced thermax sheeting. I have a sheet that illustrates some of the methods to do this if you are interested.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I asked both my Bldg inspector, and the contractors, and they told me open cell provides a vapor barrier. Maybe they look at it differently in your jurisdiction. I was told the same thing in the past, so they may look at it differently now.

I was also told that to meet minimum energy requirements, you only need 3" max of spray foam. If pinching pennies, you can save the labor to shave excess insulation and "underspray".

Tom, The square foot prices are very dependant on the thickness you want installed. I found that on average, it is costing me about $1.50-2.75 depending on what we are spraying. A 2x4 wall is on the lower end, but I have some crawl spaces, rim joists, and ceilings that I need to have done that are on the upper end of that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Open cell spray foam DOES NOT give you any sort of vapor barrier. If you use open cell you must use a vapor barrier in conjunction with it. Plastic sheeting or a vapor retardant primer applied either directly to the foam or on the drywall would suffice. Closed cell foam will give you a vapor barrier. Closed cell foam is about an r-7 per inch while open cell is slightly less. You could use the foam that comes in sheets against the block and seal all the seams and along the floor with caulk and then build your walls on the inside of that. The latter would probably be the cheapest. If we do it that we usually use foil faced thermax sheeting. I have a sheet that illustrates some of the methods to do this if you are interested.

We just built a place, and the thermax (silver foil wrapped around foam) at 1" think is what our contractor used. He attached it to block walls using big plastic washered nails (.22 style) and then foil taped all seams. He said it gives the vapor barrier and still allows the blocks to "breath". Then he said when I wanted to finish basement just put up studs on inside with NO insulation or additional vapor barrier and that's it.

We did the rim joists in spray foam, and the framed in walls (walkout) in glass bats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we do it that we usually use foil faced thermax sheeting. I have a sheet that illustrates some of the methods to do this if you are interested.

Why foil faced? I don't know what it adds? If you could send me the sheet I would appreciate it. weyandt one two three four (used the numbers not the words) @ yahoo and you know the rest.

Thanks alot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The foil faced Thermax is flame retardant so the builder can leave it exposed. If the foam is drywalled over you can use pretty much any R-5 foam. The fact that you get a variety of opinions from building inspectors is a clue to get the info from a professional who has successfully insulated block walls without causing moisture/condensation problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only closed cell gives you a vapor barrier. That is the main difference between OPEN and CLOSED cell. It is in the name. OPEN cell lets vapor through while CLOSED cell does not. Open and closed cell will give you an AIR barrier but only one gives you a vapor barrier. As a contractor I have dealt with both. Speak with someone who specializes in spray foam and they will gladly explain the differences between the two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gotta correct myself, I did not use Thermax, but "TUFF-R", but I think same stuff. Good luck Tom. I have pics of it if you would like to see how they attached/sealed/taped etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just went to Menards and the main thing the staff said was to check with the city for what they require. Seems odd to me that there would be any variance from place to place. I thought that's why there was a state building code - to keep thing uniform and simple.

The city in question requires R10 in the walls and the only thing at Menards that meets that spec was the 2 inch pink stuff - and I forgot to check and see if that was open or closed cell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would be interested to see how it was installed.

Here are a couple pics, not the best, sorry.

Not totally installed, shows edge. This was 1" stuff.

IMG_9027_800x600.jpg

This shows how they went around the staggered block wall where it meets up to framed wall.

IMG_9037_800x600.jpg

And here is a link to a pic that shows it maybe a bit better angle for big picture. We still haven't finished basement, and will take several years at best to do that, ha! (from slide show I did for my wife of the place):

Basement insulated wall using Tuff-R on block

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right now my basement has old knotty pine tounge and grove panels on the walls. Behind them I assume there is some sort of wood strips attached to the concrete already to attach the paneling to.

I am not 100% sure if there is insulation back there already but if not would it work to cut this down and put it inbetween existing strips of wood that is already there?

Would you want to cover with a vapor barrier before installing dry wall or can you then just drywall over it as is?

I have also considered just drywalling over the existing paneling since is appears to by 100% with no moisture issues and it is SOLID. The paneling is the older pine boards probably 3/4 inches thick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The pink sheet goods are closed cell. When we were talking about open and closed cell it was in reference to stuff they come out and spray in place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems like a shame to take out the knotty pine. If you do take it out carefully and see if someone else can use it - I bet you can sell it without any trouble.

As I wrote you need to check with the city you live in to see what they require. Where I'm doing it they want a R10 put in place. If you just rock over what you have you won't get much insulation out of it at all. So far the 2 inch pink board looks like the winner for me but I haven't priced out the spray foam yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The knotty pine isn't a bad look its just not the look we are going for in the basement. At one point before we bought the house we were told the water heater broke and all the water flooded the basement leaving a little water damage on the bottom of the boards. Nothing to serious just a alittle stain on the bottom where the water was trying to wick up.

I'll be able to pull them out in pretty good shape so I do plan on seeing if someone wants them. A little sanding and they would be good as new.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0



  • Posts

    • I'll be getting out again on Tuesday with the bow. It has been very hard finding time to get out this year, between work and a 4 month old at home. Last time out I spent 12 hours in the blind and saw quite a few birds during the middle of the day. Had multiple times where I thought it was going to happen but the Toms wouldn't commit 100%. Making a small adjustment this go round and hoping things come together.
    • Was thinking for hunting and maybe put a plow on it to use at my place up north. Wouldn't be my main driver. Was thinking around 15K for budget but that was before I did much looking mostly on line so far. But might step up in price for the right rig. And a lot of that would depend if I liked the newer V6 engine and 5 speed auto or 6 speed trany and less miles etc. Just by looking at dealer prices on line I would think a guy could find a pretty nice late model for around 20 or less. I think if I bought a nicer later model I would drive it more as they look like they have made the interior a lot nicer and more comfortable than the older ones. On the other hand if I ran across a real clean older one with the in line 6 and not to many miles for the right price that would be an option to. The drawback to a newer shiny one it might take a while before I ran it down the brushy trail.  
    • I am submitting this bird for Sutty on his behalf.     Forum Member: Sutty          
      Date: April 28, 2017
      Team Name: Team 2
      Youth Hunter(17 or younger): No
      Turkey Subspecies: Eastern
      State/Province Bird was Harvested In: Minnesota
       
       
      Turkey’s Stats
      Beard Length 10 inches
      Spur Length 1 & 3/16" 
      Weight 22lb 4oz
      I certify that the measurements listed above are accurate to the best of my ability.
      Forum Member: John Sutton                       Date: 4/28
      Witness: Josh Tschida                     Date: 4/28          
    • Our MN hunt this year was just about as easy as they come.  Sutty and I arrived at different times, he was late, and set up on opposite sides of the field as planned.  I could hear the birds gobbling in the valley below in their usual spot, and they sat there a long time in the cold.  Sutty couldn't see because he was on the back side of a finger of trees because he didn't want to spook anything out since he was late...  Eventually they got down and proceeded to sit on the far hill for a while longer.  I could see a 6 or so males, but suspected most were jakes, and a few hens.     Just when I was getting tired of waiting, about 8:30am, I saw one gobbler enter the field and walk straight towards Sutty's position.  As the bird got in front of Sutty, another nice gobbler came into the field.  I called to him but he wanted nothing to do with me.  Sutty shot the first bird, and the second one didn't know what happened.  Of course Sutty came running out of his blind and scared off the second bird that he didn't even know was there.      Sutty just bought a new house and had to head home asap to help his wife with packing things, and his daughter didn't seem too interested in shooting her own bird this year.  Now that she saw how ridiculously easy it is she probably won't be interested next time either.      I figured I should get to the edge of the field the birds were coming out on, and as I started moving my blind I bumped some hens that hadn't yet come up all the way out of the valley.   I finished getting my blind in place and sat a while, but it seemed we had scared the remaining birds out of the area, or maybe they were just laying low out of the wind.  In any case I went to get some lunch and let things settle down for a while.     After a couple hours of eating and casting for fish that weren't there, I decided I would head back up to sit in my blind.  Just as I reached the top of the hill to see into the field I saw three big gobblers walking across the field.  I ducked down and ran around the edge of the field out of their view to get closer.     I crawled up to about 10yd from the field edge, as far as I could go without being seen, and started calling.  They liked what they heard, but wouldn't commit right away.  After maybe 10 minutes of me cutting and purring, and all three of them strutting and gobbling out at 60-70 yards they started coming.  I couldn't see them well through the brush I was behind, and they didn't want to walk through it.  If I was at the edge of the field I could have shot them, they were within 40yd.  They proceeded to do a big arc along the field edge back to where I had just walked.     After a couple minutes of not seeing them I picked up my call, they gobbled, and then I saw them marching in where I had just walked.  When I last saw them going this direction I had shifted to face that way, I was now facing the tree I just had my back against, which put my butt in a thorn patch and the barrel to one side of the tree.  The birds started walking to the other side, so as they got behind the tree I eased the barrel to the side they were going to come out on.  They started coming up the other side back to the field they were just in and were too close together for a shot.  Finally one eased out in front and I let him have it.  He tipped backwards and rolled back downhill, and didn't even kick until I went over to grab him.  27 yards with the range finder after the fact.       Both birds turned out to be very nice old birds with long spurs.     Sutty's weighted 22lb 4oz, 10" beard, 1 3/16" spurs.  I believe this is his best turkey to date.     My bird weighted 25lb 8oz, 10" beard, 1 1/8" spurs.  My best turkey by weight and age.     Sutty and his bird.        Me and my bird.  I shot from one of the trees above this rock I think.      
    • Got it done in mn.  More to come when I get home.
    • Go to a license agent and buy one for your desired season. Season C, is on process thru May 2nd. Season D, is May 3rd thru May 9th. Season E, is May 10th thru May 16th. Season F, is May 17th thru May 31st. Season F also allows anyone with an unused tag from earlier season to hunt this period as well.   Hope this help PF.  
    • How do the over the counter licenses work this year? I missed last season but would like to get out this year even though I didn't apply for the lottery.
    • What exactly will you be using it for? Driving around the country with the top down, hunting the back woods, fording small creeks?   Do you have a particular budget to stick to?
    • at times the prop will stop on mine, usually when I move it to turn, need to tear into it sometime, I have use fishelectronics for misc. parts
    • I might have to get out and test drive a few and figure out what I like and don't like. Definitly not buying new so Ill narrow it down a bit and then wait for that cherry to show up.
  • Our Sponsors