Guests - If You want access to member only forums on HSO. You will gain access only when you sign-in or Sign-Up on HotSpotOutdoors.

It's easy - LOOK UPPER right menu.

Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Moe Szyslak

Boeing, striking machinists' talks break down (Seriously....)

25 posts in this topic

Boeing, striking machinists' talks break down

Tuesday October 14, 12:41 am ET

By Manuel Valdes, Associated Press Writer

Talks between Boeing, striking machinists break down as 5-week strike grinds on

SEATTLE (AP) -- Boeing Co. says renewed negotiations with its striking machinists broke down over an issue crucial to the company's "long-term competitiveness." A labor leader says the union was being asked to bargain away 2,000 jobs.

ADVERTISEMENT

The failed talks are the latest twist in the five-week-old strike by more than 27,000 commercial jet production workers, with both sides seemingly far apart on key issues as the walkout enters its 39th day.

The strike has halted jet assembly at Boeing plants in Washington, Oregon and Kansas.

Talks between the two sides resumed Sunday for the first time since machinists went on strike Sept. 6 over issues that include job security, pay, retirement benefits and health care.

Doug Kight, Boeing vice president of human resources and the company's chief negotiator, said the company was disappointed in the breakdown late Monday.

"We want to resolve this strike so employees can return to work, but we cannot sacrifice our ability to continuously improve productivity and our long-term competitiveness for an agreement," Kight said in a statement.

A sharper-toned statement issued by Tom Wroblewski, president of Machinists District 751, squarely blamed the breakdown on the issues of job security and outsourcing.

"The company is attempting to put the union in an unacceptable position to bargain away our members' jobs," Wroblewski said, adding one area of dispute was the job security of 2,000 union members who provide services ranging from material delivery to distribution of parts.

Wroblewski contends Boeing wants to outsource those jobs. Boeing spokesman Jim Proulx declined comment late Monday on the union's specific allegations.

"It has become apparent that the long-term strategy of The Boeing Company is to eliminate these IAM positions and replace the union workers with outside suppliers," Wroblewski said. "The words 'flexibility' and 'competitiveness' for Boeing appear to mean eliminating IAM jobs."

In his statement, Kight said, "Given current economic conditions, it is now more important than ever that we retain the ability to respond to a dynamic, uncertain environment."

No new talks were scheduled after a federal mediator adjourned Monday's session.

Before the machinists walked out in September, a two-day contract extension requested by Washington Gov. Chris Gregoire also failed to bring results.

Besides outsourcing, other key unresolved issues include health care, wages and pensions, Wroblewski said.

Analysts have said they think Boeing is losing $100 million or more in deferred revenue each day of the strike, for a total approaching $4 billion.

Outsourcing has been a key issue for the machinists from the start. Union officials have said their members should at least have the right to bid against outside companies for work traditionally done by the machinists. They note that problems with subcontractors caused repeated delays in testing and delivery of the all-new 787 jet well before the strike.

The walkout has further pushed back that program, all but eliminating any chance of a test flight in the fourth quarter of 2008 as planned and risking further delays of deliveries to customers anxious for the fuel-saving, technologically advanced aircraft.

During a 28-day strike against Boeing in 2005, settled largely with retention of existing health coverage, the company delivered three planes and missed more than two dozen deliveries.

Despite the nation's economic crisis this year, Boeing Chief Executive W. James McNerney Jr. has insisted that the Chicago-based company's seven- to eight-year order backlog remains solid. Boeing delivered 10 planes in September after the strike began, saying those aircraft had been largely finished before the walkout, but missed about 30 deliveries because of the dispute.

Union members, meanwhile, are receiving $150 a week in strike pay, less than one-seventh of their average from Boeing. Union leaders have said those payments from the union's $140 million strike fund, which continues to receive dues revenue from members in non-striking locals, could continue for five or six months.

Associated Press writer Tim Klass contributed to this story.

This affects me that is why I am posting it.

GET RID OF THE UNION!!!

"Union members, meanwhile, are receiving $150 a week in strike pay, less than one-seventh of their average from Boeing."

150 x 7 = $1050 per week. I think they are doing fine. Strike in 05 and now another in 08. I really hope they dont think this has nothing to do with why Boeing is looking to outsource.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Union members, meanwhile, are receiving $150 a week in strike pay, less than one-seventh of their average from Boeing."

They are getting $150 a week but that is only 1/7th of their normal weekly pay. Thats $54,600 a year, not bad, but also certainly not outrageous.

I think the main issue is that anyone in the airline industry doesn't see a raise unless they fight for it. It can be hard to live on the same salary year after year with how much the cost of food/gas/rent, etc goes up each year. Each year you would be worse off then you were the previous year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First, bear in mind that I am not a union supporter. I have had too many negative experiences while being a union member however...

I don't think there's any reason to fuss over the "strike pay." In many unions, if they are set up right, some of the dues paid are set aside to make it possible to weather the storm of a strike. Without that "benefit" it would weaken the union. After all, their greatest asset or bargaining chip is the potential for a long work stoppage and lost revenue for the company.

Strike pay will only last so long and in order for the striking union to have the power of the many, they must make certain those on strike can survive it. Otherwise the union solidarity falls apart and the company gets the upper hand.

The company is in the same boat. It can sometimes come down to which can hold out the longest on the tough issues.

Bob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wasnt concerned about their strike pay, I thought the idea of striking in the first place was a bad idea. This is why Boeing is trying to outsource, what company would want to deal with the strikes and loss of revenue during strikes if they dont have to. I think the union is creating more bad than good for themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The way I read it is the other way around. Boeing is trying to outsource it’s work and cut jobs. The employees are upset with this and striking. $55k per year is worthless if you don’t have a job.

I think there is a time and place for Unions and what comes from them is mostly good or at least the original intention was good, however some of them have really outgrown themselves (NEA) and need to be reconfigured.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So now instead of Boeing cutting 2000 jobs, they will cut them all. At least they stood up for what is right though!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the union is creating more bad than good for themselves.

I don't work in a unionized field however I am pro-union. The middle income people have to make a stand for livable wages and one person cannot do it by themselves. There's power in numbers and a union can inflict enough damage on a company to force them to the table and negotiate a fair contract. Remove unions and everyone, including you, will end up making the same as a Wall Mart employee. Unions also make sure their rank and file has livable wages, vacation, reasonable work weeks and health care, all things worth fighting for. There's a reason the middle class is shrinking by the day, and the lack of unions is a contributing factor.

Ps.

I hope this is settled before it impacts your livelihood. I hate to see good hardworking people loose their jobs due to factors beyond their own control.

Good luck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Union officials have said their members should at least have the right to bid against outside companies for work traditionally done by the machinists.

What the ells wrong with that ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quote:
a union can inflict enough damage on a company

I realize that you probably didn't intend this to come out the way I'm going to use it but since you put it this way, I'd like to comment.

Most of my negative impression of unions came from this very statement. There's an old say, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you." That isn't to say that one should give up without a fight or at least without resistance but there are times when we will try our darndest to take a mile when given an inch.

In my experience the union actually seemed to promote behavior that would be a negative impact on the company (under the table of course). I've experienced this attitude in other union shops where I wasn't a member but an outside contractor. It's like they do whatever they can to get away with as much as possible and in my experience as a union member that included stealing from the company, believe it or not.

I couldn't understand this and still don't to this day. Why would you want to do things that cost your employer more money while at the same time ask for, no demand more from them and then wonder why they resist?

They want the company to come to the bargaining table in good faith. It just seems that they should practice what they preach too and this goes both ways as I'm sure there is plenty of evidence against both sides.

In my union experience it was like working for the enemy and I never could figure out why my union would want me to continue to work for my enemy.

Bob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am unionized and I hate it. There is absolutely NO, ZERO, ZIP, incentive for me to work faster, harder or smarter. Can you please tell me how a union postal worker will help me? How about teacher or public works employee? The notion that removing unions will reduce wages is insane. The market will pay what it will for a skilled employee!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am a non union worker, that being said I was once told that "Bad management needs to have unions" and I agree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quote:
Remove unions and everyone, including you, will end up making the same as a Wall Mart employee. Unions also make sure their rank and file has livable wages, vacation, reasonable work weeks and health care, all things worth fighting for. There's a reason the middle class is shrinking by the day, and the lack of unions is a contributing factor

I have to at least somewhat agree with that. If unions hadn't fought for the changes they did in the early 1900s we would not be where we are today. The only issue I really have is unions have become big business themselves and that is who they tend to look out for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you please tell me how a union postal worker will help me? How about teacher or public works employee?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: Kidd
a union can inflict enough damage on a company

They want the company to come to the bargaining table in good faith.

The point of my statement was; by having the power to inflict damage is reason for the company to come to the bargaining table in good faith. If the employee has no power, the company will not even come to the table, let alone in good faith.

Kind of like have a nuclear weapon, it's there as a deterrence. smile

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Soooo, suppose two guys are sitting in a 10'x10' room, each with a pile of hand grenades at his side. Which one presents a higher deterrent, the one with 100 grenades or the one with 200?

I don't think it is necessarily the threat of damage. Both sides in a stike suffer damage and in most cases it is irreparable or at least long-lived.

My point was that too often unions begin to get this attitude that they are more powerful than they are and this actually creates more problems than it solves. Looking back on my experience, even though I may have made good money, I was happier making less and working harder after I left.

It isn't always about making money. Where I am now, I am part of a company family and not just an employee number. All of upper management knows me by my name. They didn't in the union shop I worked at. I also know that I am where I am today not because my employee number was lower than all other suitors but because of my abilities. Something else very few of my former union brothers and sisters can claim even today. Incidentally, I was an unknown hick from the Iron Range when I started here and my name carried no weight to help me advance within this company.

Bob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quote:
Analysts have said they think Boeing is losing $100 million or more in deferred revenue each day of the strike, for a total approaching $4 billion.

That's quite a figure. While deferred revenue is revenue the company may yet receive, some percentage definitely will be lost.

How can the company afford to defer $4 billion and still keep operating? Even though their payroll has sharply dropped because of the strike, how are they getting more "competitive" in the marketplace by deferring $4 billion?

The strike is costing the company money it can ill afford to lose. In the long run, that will force Boeing to ask for more and more union concessions, and future jets that have not already been contracted for will have to become more expensive to make up for company losses. That'll end up driving airline ticket prices up, too.

Everyone involved, whether management, labor or customer, is losing because of how long this is dragging on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Making less and working harder"

Sounds like a great compaign slogan for McCain!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: chasineyes
Can you please tell me how a union postal worker will help me? How about teacher or public works employee?

Why would they help you? I'm confused by that statement. confused

Quote:
The notion that removing unions will reduce wages is insane. The market will pay what it will for a skilled employee!!

You're kidding right? You don't know anyone whose union was busted and ended up working for less wages? It's happening everywhere and it's the reason business owners break unions, to get cheaper labor.

Or moving the off shore....Look at walmart...they rather close a store than allow Union to form.

interesting

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My point about helping me Kidd...is how is having the postal worker unionized helping my wages or benefits?? Also is it true that in a trade like plumbing, they (the union hall) will only "recruit" "x" number of employees to keep the supply of tradespeople down and therefore increasing the demand and wages? Again though, how does the fact that a unionized teacher's wages and benefits is somehow tied to my wages and benefits in the manufacturing industry? Are you assuming my employer looks at the school district and says "heck I guess I have to offer the same type of pay and bennies??" If you are, I have a bridge to sell you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're kidding right? You don't know anyone whose union was busted and ended up working for less wages? It's happening everywhere and it's the reason business owners break unions, to get cheaper labor.

I have a very intimate relationship with a person whose union was busted, and that person ended up WAY better off without the union, and so did the company this person worked for.

This person is me. Unions may have had their place in the early 1900's, but are a hinderance to a trained and good working individual now. Boeing employees may (I say may) be in for one heck of a shock if and when they ever go back to work.........for Boeing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think unions still have a place. Collectively, workers should have a voice, because in the case of larger companies in particular corporate abuse happens quite often, and unions can to some degree bring power to bear to ensure a decent living for their members.

However, so many unions get their panties in a bunch over issues that really are pretty minor when looking at a bigger picture. And then they dig their feet in. And then the company digs its feet in. And then it goes on and on and everyone loses.

I have been a union member, union contract negotiator, and have served on a union executive board. I have also been in management, working on the other side of the table.

Some companies and the unions that work within their walls do pretty well together, the company getting its share of concessions to remain profitable enough to satisfy its investors and the union pulling in enough raises and benefit concessions to help its membership live a good life.

It's the excesses from either side/both sides that kill it for all of us. At Boeing, it's excess.

I think it has largely to do with greed of scale, as I call it. Power corrupts, as we all know, and the larger the union, the more power its leaders hold, and the more attracted the power-hungry personality is to those leadership roles. The largest unions have a lot of money flowing through the union execs' pockets. Boeing's unions are among the largest, and some of the big unions are so big they are like governments unto themselves.

Bad deal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unions are like government. Built on good intention but breeding corruption.

Destroys a capitalist economy. People should be paid what their skills are worth, not what a union is able to get by holding a company hostage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I went to work in a union shop I had to learn how to drag my *$$ to fit in and work at the pace that everyone else did. A whole lot of waste went on there. Then there was the 10% or so that never did anything productive and did nothing but whine, complain, and stir the pot. The union protected the jobs of these people so they couldn't be fired. Productivity would have improved if they were gone. I got the feeling all the unions cared about was how many people they had paying dues.

On another note there is an attempt (mainly by Democrats) to take away secret ballots in union elections. You would sign a union card when others are around and that would be considered a yes vote for the union. This is very wrong in my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I went to work in a union shop I had to learn how to drag my *$$ to fit in and work at the pace that everyone else did. A whole lot of waste went on there. Then there was the 10% or so that never did anything productive and did nothing but whine, complain, and stir the pot. The union protected the jobs of these people so they couldn't be fired. Productivity would have improved if they were gone. I got the feeling all the unions cared about was how many people they had paying dues.

Another point I struggle with. I watch this happen day in and day out and if I bring it up with a rep they tell me not to worry about it. I'd say 75% work great, they others I struggle with. To me its simple, if you dont do your job you get fired. When you are an employee and someone asks you to do a job (that is in your job description) and you say "No", you should get fired.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0



  • Posts

    • I have fished for trout in my home waters for fifty-five years. The places I call home are the waters of the Wisconsin driftless area. Trout are my favorite species to chase. The trout of my waters have fluctuated over my more than a half century of fishing. Trout are instinctual creatures.  The big wily brown trout are my quarry.  They are portrayed as superior entities when in fact they have a brain the size of a pea. Do you want the keys to the castle?   I have seen many trends and fads come and go in the trout world.  This fancy rod and that special fly have cycled through a dozen times in my lifetime. Anglers come and go and so do the latest new fangled trends.  The constants in the trout world are the seasons and good old Mother Nature.  If you want a real leg up on those trout you should pay attention to the seasons and the changes they cause in the trout’s environment.     The weather in Wisconsin can be a harsh mistress.  The extremes are the norm here.  We could have twenty inches of snow on the ground and below zero temperatures and what seems like a blink of the eye in Wisconsin it changes.  The snow could melt and the next time you go fishing it could be radically different.  You need to roll with the seasonal changes and modify the way you fish and where you fish.

        This frigid morning in January was shaping up to be a “skunk” outing.  My friend was cold and told me he had enough and wanted to head back to the vehicle.  I talked him out of heading back.  We had taken the stream temperatures earlier and we hadn’t found a one reading over thirty-six degrees.

      The outdoor temperature was twenty-six degrees and not looking like it was going to warm up.  I had scouted this area prior and our fishing was going to get better I told him.
        Do you see the log laying on the right side of the stream?  Just on the other side of the log is a tiny trickle feeding in.  This trickle is a tiny spring.  Springs run year round here at about forty-two degrees constant.  Where that spring fed in caused a six degree temperature swing just downstream.  That little trickle made the stream bearable for the trout.    I have found many trickles during the early season when the grass is down that I cannot see even a month later due to weed growth.  It was like the Bahamas in that halo of the spring.  We caught seven trout in that tiny spot. Many feeders are not easily found during the summer.  They are covered up by weeds.  You can only discover them when the weeds are down in winter or early spring. I emphasize the word trickle here because they may be tiny and you will miss them if you are not looking for them.   My friend Andy and I fished this exact hole in September.  We both caught four trout each in this bend in September.  We couldn’t buy a bite in March.  What was different now?  First off the water temperatures were in the sixties in September and in the middle thirties in March. Trout lay in different areas during cold and warm conditions.     In Wisconsin winters the trout are in survival mode.  They need to find good lays where they don’t have to expend too much energy to hold in place and wait for food. The calories required to hold in place in this cold fast water is a negative formula for calories gained. This shallow fast current hole is great when the water temperatures are in the sixties and the trout can hide in the broken fast water.  In thirty degree water this holding place has no one home.  I would look for the deepest water either direction for two hundred yards.  This is where the trout would winter.
      One picture says a thousand words.  It was twenty degrees below out this day. The water temperature at this spring head tells the tale. It measured at forty degrees.  I like to call these Bahamas causing the water temperatures to fluctuate. A thermometer is a must to get a leg up on these instinctual creatures. This spring is a glaring thermal. 

       Many anglers discount some thermals because they are not so obvious.  A swamp is nothing more than a spring spreading out and they have the same properties as a small stream emptying into a larger waterway.  There does not need to be an obvious entry point to these swamps causing thermals.  They can leech through the surrounding banks and make their way into your stream.
        I am going to stay on thermals but switch seasons.  The temperature fluctuations you found to indicate where to find the wily trout in winter holds true in the dog days of summer.  I went with a Natural Resources crew to do a shocking.     The stretch we were to shock was a non-designated area way below typical trout water.  Even on a typical summer’s day in Wisconsin this waterway was almost too warm to fish in it.  Many anglers considered this “frog water” and dismissed it.  What a giant mistake they were making. 

       When water temperatures are near seventy degrees, it is recommended not to fish for trout.  It plain and simply puts too much stress on the fish and raises the mortality rates to an unacceptable risk for the trout.  Streams that are warmer have less dissolved oxygen in them.  Trout caught in water near seventy degrees have a hard time recovering from a battle due to the lack of oxygen.     I was in charge of the thermometer and Garmin on this trek into frog water with the fisheries folks.  Every thirty yards I was asked to take the temperature and write it down with the GPS coordinates. I was asked to submerge the thermometer at least halfway to the bottom to take the readings. I needed to hold the thermometer in place for ten seconds. I also was advised to make sure there was no secondary warming from my hands holding it.  The lead worker said the trout actually live in the lower half of water columns. The water temperatures hovered around seventy degrees at first.  We did not shock up trout in these areas.   We started to shock up some trout.  They were smaller fish.  I took the temperature and there was a slight change.  I looked around for a spring or a feeder creek.  There were none to be found. The fisheries staff told me to take more frequent measurements and log them. They were trying to prove a theory they had. I measured every ten yards on this stretch.  The temperatures continued to go down. The water temperatures were in the low sixties now and we were shocking numerous trout to the surface.  It was quite amazing how the numbers and sizes of the trout increased as the water got colder on this stretch.   We shocked up some true monsters from this waterway and then they just vanished.  The alpha or large predator trout had the lays in the coolest hides.  I could not see anything feeding in.  It was a true mystery to me.  There was a swamp about thirty yards from the stream.  It had no obvious entry points.  I followed my thermometer to its access point.  The swamp leeched into the stream and the only tell tale evidence was found with my thermometer.  

       The only visual evidence was softer banks that extended a couple of feet toward the swamps near the coldest points and these were my thermals.  I would not have discovered them without my thermometer. You can guess where the biggest brown were shock up correct?  Their noses were stuck right in the area where the trickles fed in.   I fish with many folks and they must grow weary of waiting for me to quit messing with my thermometer. Some stretches I fish regularly I leave my thermometer in my vest because of my historical data. My friend Dan Braun and I took a break during the midday of fishing due to water temperatures being too high and dangerous for the trout.  The outside temperature this day was eighty-eight degrees.  Dan took a temperature check at this spring head and it measured forty degrees. It is amazing to see a light bulb go on when another angler finally figures out why I am fiddling with my thermometer.
        The next time you fire up your computer check out the thermometers for sale.  There are many new and trendy versions.  There are many kinds.  I believe a keep it simple purchase is in order.  A bungee cord to hook them to your vest is a must purchase. A durable thermometer with easy to read numbers is what I carry. 

       I have been drawn to marginal frog water for over half a century now in Wisconsin’s driftless area.  My photos of big browns don’t lie.


       
    • Moose is staying home with no ice
    • Those "extended warranties" are mainly a cheap scam. The small print will ruin your day. And buying one AFTER  you have have the vehicle for a while compounds the mess.  Don't do it.
    • Til the end of my days, I will never understand why the northern states don't just stay open til January. What's it gonna hurt?
    • How much was spent on the one worthless count? Priceless Liber crybaby B as in S!
    • At least post a couple pics...   Those trees that move - get removed!  No body work but brakes and oil are needed.  The burning rubber smell finally went away today. 
    • Does the truck smoke when you start it or does it smoke when you step on it hard?  
    • I have one of these fans that came with my one I bought, I am taking it out as i don't want power, my shack is really only a day shack and stays at my cottage.  My fan is mounted on a the bottom of my empire 15k.
  • Our Sponsors