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Tom7227

How long to force fetch train? NEW DEVELOPMENT

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I have a two year old lab that I took to a pro. Basic obedience is good but the dog won't always retrieve. The pro said force fetch training was needed. Four weeks was agreed to. We're at week 5 and the dog has 'hit a plateau' where he will only pick up the dummy if the trainer has a hand on it while he's pinching the ear.

I have a feeling that I am being taken for a $150 a week ride. Anyone know what is a reasonable time to get this done? A week ago I was told it would take another week or two. Now we're being told another week or two.

Thanks for the input.

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Forcing cannot be rushed. 4 weeks is under-esimating the time frame in my book. A minimimum of 6 weeks for a good student and up to 8-10 weeks for a stubborn dog is needed.

Short cutting force fetching to stay on a time line is about as bad as not even doing any force work. Each dog is different and thus each training regimen takes a varying amount of time.

Good Luck!

Ken

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Forcing cannot be rushed. 4 weeks is under-esimating the time frame in my book. A minimimum of 6 weeks for a good student and up to 8-10 weeks for a stubborn dog is needed.

Short cutting force fetching to stay on a time line is about as bad as not even doing any force work. Each dog is different and thus each training regimen takes a varying amount of time.

Good Luck!

Ken

I agree!

Tom, I wish I could tell you to relax grin ...but your not posting questions every week regarding this!! wink Let us know how he progress.

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Ok, I guess he goes back. I just tried working with him and am not satisfied that he'll do what needs to be done.

Thanks for the input.

Hemi, I think I'll go and relax by cutting the grass.

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I would agree with labs, 4 wks for the prefect student, maybe. 6 wks is good, 8 to 12 wks avg.

Some of the guys & I that train together have a saying about each step of training. It goes like this. How long does it take to train a dog? answer: as long as it takes.

If the foundation is laid and your dog starts to make the connections the rest could go fast, if it doesn't it doesn't.

If you trust the trainer I wouldn't worry. Most trainers I know start at about $800 for force fetch.

Just my thoughts, Ben

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Forcing cannot be rushed. 4 weeks is under-esimating the time frame in my book. A minimimum of 6 weeks for a good student and up to 8-10 weeks for a stubborn dog is needed.

Short cutting force fetching to stay on a time line is about as bad as not even doing any force work. Each dog is different and thus each training regimen takes a varying amount of time.

Good Luck!

Ken

Because of his age (2) I would say it will probably take longer than normal. I guess after 6 weeks I would start to question the trainers ability or the amount of time the dog is spending on the table.

GOOD LUCK!!!!

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im a very novice trainer and it took me about 12 weeks. This was about 5-10 minutes a day warming him on basic drills and then about 10-15 minutes force training(depending on me and the dog's attitude).

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Very good point D.B. I totally glossed over the fact that the dog is 2 years old. Not impossible to force a dog at 2, but a much slower process as bad habits and traits are further ingrained into their noggin. Do not be surprised if it takes quite a bit longer....

Good Luck!

Ken

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Latest development - what do you think? I need some insight from some folks with some experience.

Norm the Lab came home for a week at my daughter's request. We took him back tonight. When we got there the trainer was working with a dog and it's owner. The trainer was in a layout blind and he would blow on a goose call, release the dummy and fire a blank. The dog ran out and grabbed the decoy, shook it a few times and tossed it. The trainer ran out and grabbed the dog and put him on his back and held him there. Next time as the dog ran for the dummy he threw something at it. The trainer then ran out to the dog, who had just nosed the dummy, and started kicking it and then got it on it's back and held it down again. Third time the dog did his thing. The trainer ran out and tackled the dog and then picked him up by the skin on the side of his neck, carried him back to the starting position and threw him to the ground.

At that point my daughter said let's go and so we left without even talking to him.

I guess I don't know all that much about training dogs. I do know the need to be dominant, but I don't think kicking a dog and carrying him around and throwing him to the ground does much in terms of learning lessons for the hound. Am I on point or just exhibiting total wiener tendencies?

I had paid the trainer $500 for the training. He charges $150 a week and had the dog for 5 weeks. Frankly I see absolutely no improvment in the dog. When I picked him up a week ago the trainer showed that he would use an ear pinch and Norm would only pick up the dummy if the trainer was still holding it on the ground - he wouldn't pick it up if it was just lying there. I took the dog out and tossed the dummy a half dozen times and he would go and get it, bring it back but drop it either a few feet away or at my feet.

Should I pay him the $250 that would cover the 5 weeks or not?

Ang wouldn't let Norm go back for the rest of the training and I guess at this point I have to agree with her.

Any advice/insights will be appreciated.

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My Dog's been gone for 6 months with a "professional" trainer in the Mahnomen area. This is after 3 months last year. My thought is these "professional" trainers all stick up for each other and bilk people out of a lot of money IMO. Get your dog and do the best you can. He sounds like he's interested in the "game" you just need to polish him. Takes time, I hope you have it.

It all depends on what you want, if the dog drops the dog at your feet is that really all that bad?

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When we got there the trainer was working with a dog and it's owner. The trainer was in a layout blind and he would blow on a goose call, release the dummy and fire a blank. The dog ran out and grabbed the decoy, shook it a few times and tossed it. The trainer ran out and grabbed the dog and put him on his back and held him there. Next time as the dog ran for the dummy he threw something at it. The trainer then ran out to the dog, who had just nosed the dummy, and started kicking it and then got it on it's back and held it down again. Third time the dog did his thing. The trainer ran out and tackled the dog and then picked him up by the skin on the side of his neck, carried him back to the starting position and threw him to the ground.

Frankly I see absolutely no improvment in the dog. When I picked him up a week ago the trainer showed that he would use an ear pinch and Norm would only pick up the dummy if the trainer was still holding it on the ground - he wouldn't pick it up if it was just lying there. I took the dog out and tossed the dummy a half dozen times and he would go and get it, bring it back but drop it either a few feet away or at my feet.

Ang wouldn't let Norm go back for the rest of the training and I guess at this point I have to agree with her.

I'll give you my personal opinion. With the first things you witnessed (your first paragraph) my dog would never be going back. Unfortunately it puts you in a tough position as your midway though FF. That being said...I would pay the guy for time he has spent and be done with it. IMO...no training would involve what you described in the first paragraph.

I would go with your daughter thoughts...as that's what I would do. I know there are plenty of trainers out there that don't employ that kind of training regiment....and many guys here that could recommend a good one, that is proven. I have a few if your interested.

Also, if you don't want to use another trainer I would be willing to meet up with you and see how the pup does...and help you though it. I am not a pro...and don't have years of experience, but I have successfully gone through the entire FF process with my first pup and would certainly be willing to meet up with you to help you work your pup through the remaining parts of FF. I am not all to far from you and meeting mid week a few times a week would not be an issue.....I get the new pup out every day in a field somewhere for "the walk" anyways. Otherwise...I could point out some decent reading on how to work through the rest of this yourself....depending on how much time you have yourself.

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I would not send him back. Knowing what little I know about training, I think that type of treatment/training is not needed. I would have called him out on the spot and found out if that was the type of training my dog was getting. I would have discussed the money still owed and see if I could pull out without a charge. I have done all my training on my pup and am very happy with it, and I did not use anything like that. I will never not force fetch another dog I own, it just works! TO answer the question, my dog had a very good grasp of the force fetch concept after a week of 3x's a day training. We worked on it everyday after that as well for awhile. I would just be glad I didnt see the trainer doing that to my dog.

Maybe it is just me, but dropping a bird at my feet is not an option and a dog that is f/f trained should not do that.

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I also agree with Hemi and LLG...I wouldn't continue the sessions any further. I'm no pro either, and maybe lack all-around experiencein training top notch retrievers...But in all the vids, books, publications and online research...I've never came across a tactic such as what you witnessed. IMO, The temperament of a Labrador retriever, doesn't need this type of training. Good luck

My Dog's been gone for 6 months with a "professional" trainer in the Mahnomen area. This is after 3 months last year. My thought is these "professional" trainers all stick up for each other and bilk people out of a lot of money IMO.

Gator - Who is training your pup? Is Doug doing it?...I'd be interested to hear what your thoughts and experiences are/were.

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Gator - Who is training your pup? Is Doug doing it?...I'd be interested to hear what your thoughts and experiences are/were.

That my friend is the $64,000 question. All evidence would point to the contrary.

My experience, not very good.

My thoughts....Would get my censored from here.

Shoot me your email if you want my candid response. And that is open to anyone.

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