Guests - If You want access to member only forums on HSO. You will gain access only when you sign-in or Sign-Up on HotSpotOutdoors.

It's easy - LOOK UPPER right menu.

Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Tom7227

How long to force fetch train? NEW DEVELOPMENT

16 posts in this topic

I have a two year old lab that I took to a pro. Basic obedience is good but the dog won't always retrieve. The pro said force fetch training was needed. Four weeks was agreed to. We're at week 5 and the dog has 'hit a plateau' where he will only pick up the dummy if the trainer has a hand on it while he's pinching the ear.

I have a feeling that I am being taken for a $150 a week ride. Anyone know what is a reasonable time to get this done? A week ago I was told it would take another week or two. Now we're being told another week or two.

Thanks for the input.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Forcing cannot be rushed. 4 weeks is under-esimating the time frame in my book. A minimimum of 6 weeks for a good student and up to 8-10 weeks for a stubborn dog is needed.

Short cutting force fetching to stay on a time line is about as bad as not even doing any force work. Each dog is different and thus each training regimen takes a varying amount of time.

Good Luck!

Ken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Forcing cannot be rushed. 4 weeks is under-esimating the time frame in my book. A minimimum of 6 weeks for a good student and up to 8-10 weeks for a stubborn dog is needed.

Short cutting force fetching to stay on a time line is about as bad as not even doing any force work. Each dog is different and thus each training regimen takes a varying amount of time.

Good Luck!

Ken

I agree!

Tom, I wish I could tell you to relax grin ...but your not posting questions every week regarding this!! wink Let us know how he progress.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I guess he goes back. I just tried working with him and am not satisfied that he'll do what needs to be done.

Thanks for the input.

Hemi, I think I'll go and relax by cutting the grass.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would agree with labs, 4 wks for the prefect student, maybe. 6 wks is good, 8 to 12 wks avg.

Some of the guys & I that train together have a saying about each step of training. It goes like this. How long does it take to train a dog? answer: as long as it takes.

If the foundation is laid and your dog starts to make the connections the rest could go fast, if it doesn't it doesn't.

If you trust the trainer I wouldn't worry. Most trainers I know start at about $800 for force fetch.

Just my thoughts, Ben

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Forcing cannot be rushed. 4 weeks is under-esimating the time frame in my book. A minimimum of 6 weeks for a good student and up to 8-10 weeks for a stubborn dog is needed.

Short cutting force fetching to stay on a time line is about as bad as not even doing any force work. Each dog is different and thus each training regimen takes a varying amount of time.

Good Luck!

Ken

Because of his age (2) I would say it will probably take longer than normal. I guess after 6 weeks I would start to question the trainers ability or the amount of time the dog is spending on the table.

GOOD LUCK!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

im a very novice trainer and it took me about 12 weeks. This was about 5-10 minutes a day warming him on basic drills and then about 10-15 minutes force training(depending on me and the dog's attitude).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very good point D.B. I totally glossed over the fact that the dog is 2 years old. Not impossible to force a dog at 2, but a much slower process as bad habits and traits are further ingrained into their noggin. Do not be surprised if it takes quite a bit longer....

Good Luck!

Ken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Latest development - what do you think? I need some insight from some folks with some experience.

Norm the Lab came home for a week at my daughter's request. We took him back tonight. When we got there the trainer was working with a dog and it's owner. The trainer was in a layout blind and he would blow on a goose call, release the dummy and fire a blank. The dog ran out and grabbed the decoy, shook it a few times and tossed it. The trainer ran out and grabbed the dog and put him on his back and held him there. Next time as the dog ran for the dummy he threw something at it. The trainer then ran out to the dog, who had just nosed the dummy, and started kicking it and then got it on it's back and held it down again. Third time the dog did his thing. The trainer ran out and tackled the dog and then picked him up by the skin on the side of his neck, carried him back to the starting position and threw him to the ground.

At that point my daughter said let's go and so we left without even talking to him.

I guess I don't know all that much about training dogs. I do know the need to be dominant, but I don't think kicking a dog and carrying him around and throwing him to the ground does much in terms of learning lessons for the hound. Am I on point or just exhibiting total wiener tendencies?

I had paid the trainer $500 for the training. He charges $150 a week and had the dog for 5 weeks. Frankly I see absolutely no improvment in the dog. When I picked him up a week ago the trainer showed that he would use an ear pinch and Norm would only pick up the dummy if the trainer was still holding it on the ground - he wouldn't pick it up if it was just lying there. I took the dog out and tossed the dummy a half dozen times and he would go and get it, bring it back but drop it either a few feet away or at my feet.

Should I pay him the $250 that would cover the 5 weeks or not?

Ang wouldn't let Norm go back for the rest of the training and I guess at this point I have to agree with her.

Any advice/insights will be appreciated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My Dog's been gone for 6 months with a "professional" trainer in the Mahnomen area. This is after 3 months last year. My thought is these "professional" trainers all stick up for each other and bilk people out of a lot of money IMO. Get your dog and do the best you can. He sounds like he's interested in the "game" you just need to polish him. Takes time, I hope you have it.

It all depends on what you want, if the dog drops the dog at your feet is that really all that bad?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When we got there the trainer was working with a dog and it's owner. The trainer was in a layout blind and he would blow on a goose call, release the dummy and fire a blank. The dog ran out and grabbed the decoy, shook it a few times and tossed it. The trainer ran out and grabbed the dog and put him on his back and held him there. Next time as the dog ran for the dummy he threw something at it. The trainer then ran out to the dog, who had just nosed the dummy, and started kicking it and then got it on it's back and held it down again. Third time the dog did his thing. The trainer ran out and tackled the dog and then picked him up by the skin on the side of his neck, carried him back to the starting position and threw him to the ground.

Frankly I see absolutely no improvment in the dog. When I picked him up a week ago the trainer showed that he would use an ear pinch and Norm would only pick up the dummy if the trainer was still holding it on the ground - he wouldn't pick it up if it was just lying there. I took the dog out and tossed the dummy a half dozen times and he would go and get it, bring it back but drop it either a few feet away or at my feet.

Ang wouldn't let Norm go back for the rest of the training and I guess at this point I have to agree with her.

I'll give you my personal opinion. With the first things you witnessed (your first paragraph) my dog would never be going back. Unfortunately it puts you in a tough position as your midway though FF. That being said...I would pay the guy for time he has spent and be done with it. IMO...no training would involve what you described in the first paragraph.

I would go with your daughter thoughts...as that's what I would do. I know there are plenty of trainers out there that don't employ that kind of training regiment....and many guys here that could recommend a good one, that is proven. I have a few if your interested.

Also, if you don't want to use another trainer I would be willing to meet up with you and see how the pup does...and help you though it. I am not a pro...and don't have years of experience, but I have successfully gone through the entire FF process with my first pup and would certainly be willing to meet up with you to help you work your pup through the remaining parts of FF. I am not all to far from you and meeting mid week a few times a week would not be an issue.....I get the new pup out every day in a field somewhere for "the walk" anyways. Otherwise...I could point out some decent reading on how to work through the rest of this yourself....depending on how much time you have yourself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would not send him back. Knowing what little I know about training, I think that type of treatment/training is not needed. I would have called him out on the spot and found out if that was the type of training my dog was getting. I would have discussed the money still owed and see if I could pull out without a charge. I have done all my training on my pup and am very happy with it, and I did not use anything like that. I will never not force fetch another dog I own, it just works! TO answer the question, my dog had a very good grasp of the force fetch concept after a week of 3x's a day training. We worked on it everyday after that as well for awhile. I would just be glad I didnt see the trainer doing that to my dog.

Maybe it is just me, but dropping a bird at my feet is not an option and a dog that is f/f trained should not do that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hemi, I appreciate the offer. Write me at weyandt1234@yahoo.com and let's set something up. I'm wide open as I am retired.

Thanks

Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also agree with Hemi and LLG...I wouldn't continue the sessions any further. I'm no pro either, and maybe lack all-around experiencein training top notch retrievers...But in all the vids, books, publications and online research...I've never came across a tactic such as what you witnessed. IMO, The temperament of a Labrador retriever, doesn't need this type of training. Good luck

My Dog's been gone for 6 months with a "professional" trainer in the Mahnomen area. This is after 3 months last year. My thought is these "professional" trainers all stick up for each other and bilk people out of a lot of money IMO.

Gator - Who is training your pup? Is Doug doing it?...I'd be interested to hear what your thoughts and experiences are/were.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gator - Who is training your pup? Is Doug doing it?...I'd be interested to hear what your thoughts and experiences are/were.

That my friend is the $64,000 question. All evidence would point to the contrary.

My experience, not very good.

My thoughts....Would get my censored from here.

Shoot me your email if you want my candid response. And that is open to anyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0



  • Posts

    • Ended up being the clutch dog and reverse gear were wore out... 550 for parts...I almost ended up getting a whole new lower unit, but a buddy was able to find the parts...The shop said they discontinued the parts Yada Yada Yada, but some shop in Hackensack was able to find them I guess...just want the dang boat back ha...
    • That's rough DrJ, were you on public or private land?   
    • They're finally playing someone outside of the central division tonight, so we'll see what happens. Did Sano get suspended for throwing a punch yesterday?
    • OK, to go back to original question, how much current do the 12 volt pumps used in those sort of systems use?   I can go look up the information and figure it out, but I hoped someone here already knew the answer.  
    • DonBo, good luck on your bow quest,  your father raised you well!  What a great way to celebrate life by sharing a hunt together.
    • My family has LIfe 360 on our phones. It allows you to know exactly where that phone is at all times. My teenage kids were not to hip on the idea until my wife explained that you either have the app or you don't have a phone. It already saved a phone. My son dropped his phone in the middle of a bean field last summer.  We were able to use the app to drive a wheeler to within 10ft. Well worth it.
    • My personal opinion on the backup pumps is that they are a stop gap to buy you enough time to minimize the amount of water that backs up during a torrential storm while you get your primary pumps on a generator.    Obviously the biggest factor is to figure out how much water can enter the drainage system during the heaviest downpours and that can help you decide what gpm you need to stay ahead of the water. If you get a bigger backup pump then you will burn through a battery faster.    If you don't get a lot of water in the system ever and if the sump pump only runs periodically during even heavy rains and wet weather then you can get more run time from a smaller system.    There really isn't a way to say exactly what you need to be 100%safe unless you know exactly what flows you have.
    • Already doing many of these.  It's slowly improving.
    • I was just getting some info on this unit: http://www.zoellerpumps.com/en-ap/product/63-basement-sentry#features     I am sure you could hook up multiple batteries as well
    • Sunday, pulled a group of 3 toms from about 500 yds across private into the public only to hang up at 60 yds. We worked them for 2 hrs and they never got in front of the blind. They finally got closer, but instead of going in front of the blind, they got behind the blind at about 5 yards inside the woodline and could hear them stepping on twigs. Man what a rush. Sadly, they walked back onto private and out of our lives LOL. Kinda wish I was hunting with a shotgun!   3 or 4 gobblers were rattling off behind us in the woods in the morning and shut up by 7. The 3 that we got to come in from private were to the other side and they didn't gobble til they were close enough to see/hear our setup. Those two hours were between 8 and 10. Will try again.
  • Our Sponsors