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Thorn

The DNR meeting you may want to pay attention to.

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Any additional info is welcome here.

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Minnesota DNR to host meeting on lead in venison

ST. PAUL (AP) - The Minnesota Department of Natural Resources will host a five-state meeting next week to discuss the discovery of lead fragments in venison.

Wildlife, public health and food safety experts are set to attend Wednesday's meeting in Bloomington.

The Minnesota DNR says the meeting is aimed at helping regulators, hunters and processors understand the implications of lead in venison. Representatives from hunting organizations also have been invited.

Some venison donated by hunters last fall had to be recalled from food shelves in Minnesota and North Dakota after lead fragments were found in the meat. No illnesses have been linked to eating fragments of lead ammunition.

Representatives from agencies in Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, Iowa and Wisconsin have been invited to the meeting.

(Copyright 2008 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved

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This is from MN DNR HSOforum....

----------------------------------------

News Releases

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Minnesota DNR to convene multi-state meeting on lead fragments in venison (May 30, 2008)

Wildlife, public health and food safety experts from five states will meet in Minnesota next week for the purpose of helping regulators, hunters and processors better understand the implications of lead fragments in hunter-harvested deer.

The meeting, hosted by the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR), will be held Wednesday, June 4, in Bloomington.

“This is the beginning of a regional effort to develop consistent programs and recommendations based on the best professional judgment of public health, agricultural and natural resources officials and scientists,” said Dennis Simon, DNR wildlife section chief. “Minnesota is taking a leadership role because we understand how important this topic is to so many different people.”

Lead fragments found in venison donated by hunters last fall resulted in recalls of some of the meat from food shelves in Minnesota and North Dakota due to the unknown health risks associated with consumption of lead particles. No illnesses have been linked to consumption of fragments from lead ammunition but officials in both states opted to err on the side of caution.

Simon said invitations have been sent to wildlife, public health and agricultural agency representatives in Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, Iowa and Wisconsin. Representatives from the hunting industry and hunting organizations also have been invited.

Each state will review the status of its venison donation program, which typically allows hunters to donate deer to food shelves, and identify potential guidelines for management of venison donation programs this fall.

Participants also will discuss developing recommendations to guide hunters in the processing and consumption of their own venison as well as identify additional research and information about lead fragments that may be needed.

“Our expectation is that this is a working meeting that will produce a better understanding of current efforts concerning lead fragments in venison,” Simon said. “We want to identify future needs, provide guidance to hunters and processors and develop a consensus on the core elements of a uniform communication effort that will enable our respective deer management and venison donation programs to remain viable.”

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So here's the deal that so many missed.

The previous tests were done and found lead traces...in what?

whole cut meats.

What constitues that for consumption?..it wasn't ready.

Both whole cuts and ground meat were tested and the traces were found in whole cuts which both were destined for food shelves. but,

The whole cuts were not ready as they were not processed completly, but were used for sample testing.

Why don't they do a test as to what it's sole purpose is intended? To find toxins, bacteria, and a bullet fragment in whole cuts is sure to be expected, as we don't eat bloodshot meat, eyeballs, brains and spines from these animals.

Anytime there is a questionable doubt to venison the samples are sent to Iowa. The MN AG did not do that with these samples. Iowa did their own tests and found no traces. Therefore Iowa ok'd their venison. Wisconsin said they were going to test and prolly found no trace either, but since two brothers one being in MN DNR and the other in WI DNR they decided not to show their results in WI. conflict of INTEREST eh?

[Note from admin: Edited. Please read forum policy before posting again. Thank you.]

Cabelas has a sale on some Barnes Triple Shock coppe bullets..better stock up.

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So here's the deal that so many missed.

The previous tests were done and found lead traces...in what?

whole cut meats.

What constitues that for consumption?..it wasn't ready.

Both whole cuts and ground meat were tested and the traces were found in whole cuts which both were destined for food shelves. but,

The whole cuts were not ready as they were not processed completly, but were used for sample testing.

Why don't they do a test as to what it's sole purpose is intended? To find toxins, bacteria, and a bullet fragment in whole cuts is sure to be expected, as we don't eat bloodshot meat, eyeballs, brains and spines from these animals.

Anytime there is a questionable doubt to venison the samples are sent to Iowa. The MN AG did not do that with these samples. Iowa did their own tests and found no traces. Therefore Iowa ok'd their venison. Wisconsin said they were going to test and prolly found no trace either, but since two brothers one being in MN DNR and the other in WI DNR they decided not to show their results in WI. conflict of INTEREST eh?

[Note from admin: Edited. Please read forum policy before posting again. Thank you.]

Cabelas has a sale on some Barnes Triple Shock coppe bullets..better stock up.

As most of you know, I don't post personal opinions on this board and I won't do that now. However, I need to clear this one up before it gets out of hand. Thorn - you're wrong. In fact, you're not even close. 26% of the ground samples and 2% of the whole samples contained lead. Also, all the samples were taken directly from the food shelf or food bank. So, they were completely processed, frozen, and ready for distribution. Also, samples don't need to be sent to Iowa (not sure where you go that one) as MDA has access to the X-Ray machine (presence/absence) and the equipment to obtain concentrations. Perhaps you're confusing this issue with something NVSL (National Veterinary Services Lab) in Ames would handle for disease testing?

Finally, as far as I know, Iowa only tested 10 pounds of meat and found lead in 2 of them. I'm reading their 4/1 release right now and that's what is listed. In contrast, Minnesota has tested over 1,300 pounds of meat. I don't have any information from WI, but I'm sure I'll learn more this week.

Hopefully that clears some of it up.

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State says venison okay to feed to needy after tests for lead

Wednesday, April 2, 2008, 9:41 AM

By Darwin Danielson

State officials say food pantries in Iowa can resume serving deer meat to the needy after sampling showed little signs of lead. Department of Natural Resources spokesman, Kevin Baskins, says they decided to test the Iowa venison after a warning issued about ground deer meat in North Dakota. He says all ten of the samples they took had less than one part per million of lead, eight had no detectable amounts at all, and only two had trace amounts of lead.

www.radioiowa.com/gestalt/go.cfm?objectid=0F9784.

This is the media report from Iowa. Less than one part per million equals 0%.

Heck a deer could have licked a tractor tire and pick up more amounts of lead.

--------------

I never said MN didn't have a x-ray machine nor implied otherwise. In fact I said "suspected venison samples are sent to Iowa"...go back and read.

This was from the recent TB control.

The Veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory at the University of Minnesota’s College of Veterinary Medicine does initial screenings on the deer to detect likely positives. These are then sent to the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s National Veterinary Services Laboratory in Ames, Iowa, for confirmation

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As far as having whole cut processed meat being sampled all reports were....

Samples taken were destined for food shelves. I'm taking that to mean set aside. I never read a report stating these were ready for consumption. if you can, provide that link for us.

Thanks in advance.

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You're mixing bovine TB where the samples are sent to Ames for culturing of lymph nodes, which is the final determination of whether or not the deer has bovine TB and lead testing of meat. They are entirely 2 different entities. In fact, the VDL has nothing to do with the lead issue. As for a link to the meat, I'm sorry but I don't have one. You'll just have to trust that I know what I'm talking about.

Thorn, please don't take offense to this but you do need to know that I don't do back and forths on this board. I merely chime in to answer questions and correct inaccurate information. I don't engage people on he said, she said issues. Like I said, you're just going to have to believe that I know what I'm talking about.

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Then why did the dermatologist / hunter Dr Cornatzer send his meat there to have it confirmed?

Funny stuff. A dermatologist with no taxonomy training sends his own meat to the trash can!

[Note from admin: Edited. Please read forum policy before posting again. Thank you.]

All that initial report from Cornatzer showed as well was Iowa confirmed lead. That's no big deal, as no scientific data can confirm the validity to throw out thousands of pounds of consumable meat.

Iowa did it's own test and said...enjoy your venison.

Many states depend on the vet lab in Iowa to prove data. MN just decided to go the route of erring on the side of caution, OK now go do some real tests. I would even say if a bow kill was tested for lead you would find near equal amounts.

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Thorn,

As I run the deer program for the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, I'd say I have a little more than just an opinion. Like I said, I post on this board to inform, educate, and clarify. Having said that, this will be my last post on this topic. Have a great day and good luck this deer season and I hope the hail didn't get you too badly on Saturday. I'm near Isanti and got pounded.

Lou

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Lou - thanks for taking the time to post here --- and thanks for setting the record straight on this topic. I know I speak for many of us when I say we greatly appreciate your input here at FM!

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Lou - thanks for taking the time to post here --- and thanks for setting the record straight on this topic. I know I speak for many of us when I say we greatly appreciate your input here at FM!

Ya, +1.

Now when are those deer regs going to be out? sicksmilecool

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The release was supposed to come out this week but it'll be next week. Outdoor News will carry most of it this Thursday. What do you want to know?

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Quote:
Lou - thanks for taking the time to post here --- and thanks for setting the record straight on this topic. I know I speak for many of us when I say we greatly appreciate your input here at FM!

I'll second that!

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Originally Posted By: Jameson

The release was supposed to come out this week but it'll be next week. Outdoor News will carry most of it this Thursday. What do you want to know?

I'd like to know if its a done deal that Zone 4 is moving to a nine day season vrs the two and four day seasons of the past??? I'd heard talk of the nine day but nothing concrete.

Thanks!!

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MN did a study on lead fragmenting in 2004 in Osseo. It was also a vetinarin study, what were the results?

Also is copper solid bullets going to be performing as well as lead?

----------------

The reason Cornatzer sent his meat to Iowa is because he tested it with a CT scan and found no traces. Iowa found nothing harmful to anything on plante earth except less than 1 part per million and that's where Cornatzer got his toe in the door.

If MN did that like they do everything else would that have matterd? I bet it would have . I sent letters to botht the DNR commissioner and the Gov Pawlenty and recieved no response. Prolly because they had no scientific bound fact that it would be harmful. I say quit jiving around and test this stuff accordingly. Prolly won't happen though as the state is on a big kick now of get the lead out.

As far as the meeting goes tomorrow it will be about the enironmentalist attitude of polution control. Lead is bad stuff...LOL Just how bad? Like I said the DNR did a test in cooperation with other groups in Osseo. Where's the data?

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I am very willing to wait for the regs book to come out, but since you asked. grin

1) Will hunter limits outside of the metro be 5 deer again?

2) Any changes in archery regs?

3) Is there still a zone 4?

4) Will I be able to buy both a Zone 1 and Zone 2 license?

5) Will Muzzleloader's need to apply for doe tags?

6)Will area 428 remain lottery? How many permits will be issued?

7)Will 115,175,and 122 remain managed areas?

E.C.) More importantly, what direction will the wind be out of on opener? Thanks!

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[Note from admin: Edited. Please read forum policy before posting again. Thank you.]

Did the DNR test confirm lead fragments? or was it just lead. I'm guessing the most confirmed concentrates were found in whole cuts, it only makes sense. And could be from imporoper processing. Yuck blood shot meat has always been verified as contaminated anyway. I still have no confirmation of what destined for food shelves constitutes.

Mostly the research that's available seems to show that bullet retention is key in penetration. However when a bullet has superior retention capabilities they fail at having enough expansion to kill deer effeciently, humanely and quickly and that would constitute poor hunting ethics.

Myself I have used such a bullet, and at 40 yards front foreward facing doe met her demise to a fail safe. I would never make that mistake again. I was told by a Winchester factory rep at a hunting show that the bullet would make a complete pass through for a quick kill. Well it did. I shot her in the front right shoulder, the bullet crossed her spine, out her left leg in the ham and only made a pencil sized exit wound. I was in a tree stand and she was on a hill almost on equal ground as she stepped out behind some brush she had me pegged and was bird dogging me at full point with her nose streatched right at me.

So I really ask you, when using a copper solid bullet, are its expansion capabilities going to be enough to produce a quick kill? Or is it going to be worse than some lead bullets and thus requiring more follow up shots on deer?

Keep in mind that most deer taken in MN are less than 70yards.

Barnes TSX Triple Shock

This solid copper bullet has an innovative nose cavity that predetermines and controls expansion, and it features circumferential relief grooves in the straight, bore-bearing section of the bullet. Firing tests show that the bottoms of these grooves are not engraved by a barrel's rifling during firing, greatly reducing the bearing surface of the bullet.

Being a homogeneous copper bullet, there is no core and jacket separation issue. A specially shaped cavity in the forward section of the bullet produces a predetermined and predictable formation of petals during expansion. The depth of the cavity also determines the degree of expansion. Uniformly shaped expanding petals fold back, and expansion stops when the bottom of the nose cavity is reached.

This type of bullet penetrates most deeply of any bullet in test after test. Under ultra high velocity close range impact, the expanded petals tend to break off, leaving a smaller frontal diameter of the bullet for greater penetration with reduced meat destruction. At the same time, the blunt front end transmits considerable shock to surrounding tissue.

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Heck I also found this in an alternative treatment for lead poisoning..protein? does that come from vinnie?...LOL And just where do animals get lead poisoning from...HMMMM gotta ask LOL since I'm no Dr.

Alternative treatment

However, getting enough calcium, zinc, and protein may help reduce the amount of lead the body absorbs. Iron is also important, since people who are deficient in this nutrient absorb more lead. Garlic and thiamine, a B-complex vitamin, have been used to treat lead poisoning in animals.

Nutritional, botanical, and homeopathic medicines can be administered once the source is removed, to help correct any imbalances brought on by lead toxicity.

----

Hope the meeting is a good one with lots of talk about what really matters, quality of life. ...fill 'er up please,Leaded or umleaded LOL

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Bump for Jameson as inquiring minds want to know...LOL

I am very willing to wait for the regs book to come out, but since you asked. grin

1) Will hunter limits outside of the metro be 5 deer again?

2) Any changes in archery regs?

3) Is there still a zone 4?

4) Will I be able to buy both a Zone 1 and Zone 2 license?

5) Will Muzzleloader's need to apply for doe tags?

6)Will area 428 remain lottery? How many permits will be issued?

7)Will 115,175,and 122 remain managed areas?

E.C.) More importantly, what direction will the wind be out of on opener? Thanks!

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Sorry, just checking back:

1) Will hunter limits outside of the metro be 5 deer again? Depends on the area. The metro zone will be unlimited again. Other areas will be 1,2, or 5

2) Any changes in archery regs? Nope

3) Is there still a zone 4? Nope, it goes to Zone 2 this year. Where's my flame suit?

4) Will I be able to buy both a Zone 1 and Zone 2 license? You'll be able to hunt both with a regular statewide firearms license ($26). They'll be no more all-season or multi-zone buck because you'll be able to buy arch, firearm, and muzz

5) Will Muzzleloader's need to apply for doe tags? Most likely NOT people who only hunt muzzleloader and don't buy a firearm license.

6)Will area 428 remain lottery? How many permits will be issued? Don't know yet.

7)Will 115,175,and 122 remain managed areas? Same as 6

This should probably go to a new thread.

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Thanks Icornice!

Good info! smile

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Is there a link up for this, or are you just giving us inside info? It would be good info to start on its own topic of new regs, Just a thought!

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Heck , now back on topic of what the meeting was really about. Lead.

They were going to talk about what to do with the venison donationm program and use of lead bullets

[Note from admin: Edited. Please read forum policy before posting again. Thank you.]

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Is there a link up for this, or are you just giving us inside info? It would be good info to start on its own topic of new regs, Just a thought!

No, not yet. It's all still in process.

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Originally Posted By: lcornice
Originally Posted By: Jameson

The release was supposed to come out this week but it'll be next week. Outdoor News will carry most of it this Thursday. What do you want to know?

I'd like to know if its a done deal that Zone 4 is moving to a nine day season vrs the two and four day seasons of the past??? I'd heard talk of the nine day but nothing concrete.

Thanks!!

Blackjack, sorry I just saw this. Yes, Zone 4 goes to Zone 2 this year.

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Thanks Icornice!

Good info! smile

Call me slow, but after reading this thread, things became much clearer to me when I figured out the I is a lower case L.

Thanks for being a part of this forum Lou, ...and I know how you feel!

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